Some Things I think are OP

Milae

Prince
Joined
Dec 17, 2019
Messages
410
Was having a chat with @Hinin about some of the most exploitable mechanics in the game so I thought I'd give my list of things which I seem to always end up doing (or trying to) when playing hard games. I'll try and do them in order they appear in the game. Can be taken as advice or to start a discussion on whether things need to be nerfed or not.

1. Pantheons: Open Sky, God of Stars and Sky
Obviously these do depend on the land but they are the best scaling pantheons in the game, whilst also being good enough to get a religion often. They aren't crazy OP but every other pantheon is either weaker or more situational then them.

2. Tribute (Authority Policy).
Pretty powerful policy which comes early and combined with Imperium can often allow Authority starts to keep up in development with Progress whilst also having the obvious military benefits. The really OP bit is the fact that this gives you a bonus in your capital for each tile you steal with a GG. Basically gives you more production then a great engineer, when you use a citadel, which already feel pretty strong as stealing tiles can be a huge benefit in wars.

3. Pagodas + Orders
Orders seem to give a bit too much, they give experience, loads of faith lategame, the morale promotion, and bonus defense and hitpoints to help you survive early. I'm not sure if Pagodas are bugged or not but they seem to always give like +4 or more to each yield when they should be giving 2 or 3. Even at 2 they are arguably better than the other faith buildings but at +4 it's just no contest. I pick both of these very often.

3. Melee boats (Corvette onwards).
Very high base combat strength and some amazing promotions. Either Vanguard or blitz are both really strong options at level 5. Completely outclass Ranged boats imo and can destroy cities in a few hits, especially since ironclads get a bonus to attacking cities as standard.

4. EDIT - Symbolism.
Not always the best enhancer but always at least top 2 or 3. GPP are useful in every game and the missionaries reduce pressure actually allows you to convert cities which are already converted which is impossible without prophets usually. Also never gets picked by AIs it seems so never any need to rush to enhance religion.

5. To the Glory of God.
Best Reformation belief in almost every game. Great Writers and Great Scientist are the best GPs but I think Rationalism and Progress are the worst policy trees of their era. Also you can buy Scientists earlier than from Rationalism which can be very useful for the late Industrial/early Modern Era where there are a lot of key wonders. Also GM,GA for theming bonuses and Golden Ages, GD for extra votes and GG for stealing land are all useful in like every game and it's very cheap to buy one of each.

6. Twokay Food Corporation.
Absolutely crazy good. Build an office in every city and you will have 0 Unhappiness, no matter how big your empire is. Then your cities can all grow to a big size. This is actually very useful lategame as there are museums, broadcast towers and Public Schools which all scale with population. And obviously you can build more stuff and work more specialists, and you get decent instant yields from citizens being born. Works amazingly with Nationalization (Order tenet) and also gives you a big boost to tourism thanks to Broadcast and museums. I think this is the best Corporation whenever you have more than like 4 cities.

7. Lebensraum (Autocracy Policy).
2 tile Great Generals tile steal is just ridiculous, and it allows you to chain GGs together and just eat your way into someone's city. Here is a picture of me playing Zulus with all of my troops in my land before I attack Russia.
Spoiler Pic :

zulu GGs.jpg



Not only this but it has insane synergy with the Tribute policy when you use GGs that I mentioned earlier. Way more production than you will ever get from a GE lategame and can be put into Projects (World's Fair, Citizen Earth Protocol etc) as well as Wonders.

8. World's Fair + Great Writers.
I guess this is partially why Glory of God is so good but buying great writers during the world's fair bonus culture, especially if you have golden age and culture processes running can give you a huge amount of culture and allow you to catch up/pull ahead lategame (I don't think AIs are good at doing this themselves). You only need the silver reward to get the culture bonus and people generally won't nay it since it benefits everyone so I use this every single game at some point, provided I can buy Great Writers, and I start organising my natural Great Writer timings to hit during the Worlds Fair as well.

9. Tanks.
Just Outclass every other unit lategame, higher combat strength, more movespeed, take less damage and do loads of damage to cities. I don't think there are any counters to them and they make infantry feel like they are just in the way. They do need oil but that's quite easy to have since you don't need it for anything economic and they are usually better than planes. Modern armor and GDRs are similarly good.

Other than that I'd say Stonehenge might be a little too good given how early it is and University of Sankore is super game changing for tradition games. Mausoleum Founder + Tradition gives insane faith as it seems to scale with era and the Way of Noble Truths Founder also felt quite ridiculous as I was able to get every city state ally before industrial (this was without even Borobudur). Also God of all creation pantheon is basically a no brainer every time you can't/don't wat to go for a religion, the bonus science early is so useful. These aren't things that I necessarily go for every game though.
 
Last edited:
My thoughts:

1. Pantheons: Open Sky, God of Stars and Sky.
Open Sky can scale well, but its main yield (gold) is one of the weaker yields. I think its quite good, but so is renewal in a large forested area, or spirit of the desert in desert, heck the new Ancestor Worship is really solid off a Stonehenge start. I don't think Open Sky is OP.

Stars and Sky just got a pretty big nerf recently, so we will have to see how it looks now.

2. Tribute (Authority Policy)
I'll let others comment on these more. I don't think the policy itself is OP, but the idea of a GG -> pseudo GE might be something the human exploits and the AI doesn't.

3. Pagodas + Orders
Orders does give a lot of faith. But that's its main thing....just faith. It works well with faith buy beliefs and the like, but I have never felt it op compared to raw science or culture.

For Pagados: They are good buildings, providing a very solid well rounded bonus. But I doubt they equal the science of a WLTKD fueled civ using Synagogues or a GA focused one using Mosques. So good for general bonuses but not as good if you are specializing or need to cover a specific weakness. I think they are fine personally.

3. Melee boats (Corvette onwards).
In human hands or the AI? Melee boats are really good for small islands that don't have a lot of defenses or for weak cities that don't have modern defenses. But against a serious coastal city? Sure they pack a heck of a punch, but they get damaged very quickly....and are vulnerable to skimishers and lots of ranged damage because of their proximity. Sure they can tank a good amount of damage, but once a melee ships drops below a certain threshold it becomes worthless....it can't attack anymore or hold position as it will just get killed. So you have to send it back to repair, which means you are waiting a long time for that ship to be useful again.

Ranged ships don't do as much damage off the bat, but they do it round after round after round after round. further, they can actually threaten and deal with the land forces, a large contingent of melee ships just has a target on them. I would much rather have a few good melee ships with a contigent of ranged ships than to have a large melee navy for city bombardment.

4. Syncretism.
I think you meant Symbolism here based on your description. And I agree, I have a hard time saying no to Symbolism no matter what style I'm playing.

5. To the Glory of God.
I think its the best Reformation in SOME games. Its really good with certain policy plays, aka ones that don't generate GWs and GSs. For those, the belief is extremely useful. Otherwise....sure its solid, I never think its bad, but there are other beliefs that I think are really good in their niche....inspired works off a Tradition GP play is very very good.

6. Twokay Food Corporation.
Its true that this belief makes happiness very easy.....but that's it....that is literally what this corp does. Yes the food is nice, and yes I grow quickly with this corp....but again that's it. Other corps can give me 80% more culture or science in my capital, or like 150% more GPP. Growth is simply not that great at this point in the game, what is a few more pop really getting me.... a splash of extra science and culture? Compared to % magnifiers in my capital there is no comparison.

7. Lebensraum (Autocracy Policy).
So on the one hand....I agree with you that humans exploit this way better than the AIs do, and citadels are so good that the fact you can swallow massive chunks of land and literally put a citadel next to your enemy's city is just insanely good. But I also think this is the most FUN tenant in the entire game, I literally cackle with glee when I use this tenant.

I am usually strongly on changes for the sake of balance, but on this one I just want the fun aspect to win out. Its too fun to let go imo.

8. World's Fair + Great Writers.
I see this one as "an area to focus the AI on improvement wise". I don't think its needs to be nerfed, but it would be nice to teach the AI some of these tricks, because its not even just World's Fair....its a good thing to do right before the industrial age if you have GW buys. You go heavy culture, get to industrial, faith buy a few GWs (and maybe even generate one normally) and you get a big culture boost.

9. Tanks.
As for counters, Rocket Artillery and Bombers do just fine against Tanks. Tanks are the dominant land unit of their era.... as they are supposed to be. Still, fortified infantry can stand up to tanks, and artillery do more damage to cities...often from 4 hexes away at this point. Also I think infantry have better roles with amphibious focused invasions', they are better at amphibious strikes, and can soak more damage when first getting to the coast (Tanks have higher CS but infantry have a lot more HP). I think Tanks are well balanced at this point


Stonehenge - My only issue with Stonehenge and Pyramids is that the AI doesn't properly "rush" them....so its fairly trivial for the human to get them with even an "ok" start. I think that any start that can't get Stonehenge by Turn 26 should not feel comfortable going for it, and right now I feel comfortable up to about Turn 31-32.

University of Sankore - A really good wonder, partially balanced by the heavy top tech tree focus. You are missing out on certain military techs and of course baths. Now if you have gone both sides and the wonder is still available, by all means....but in a competitive game you should have to give us some valuable things for this wonder.

Way of Noble Truths Founder - It does give you really good CS allies....again, that's its job. Its not giving you big innate bonuses or raw yields in your cities, it gives you more CS allies. Its a solid and useful bonus, but I'm not convinced its the best thing to always get
 
1. I'd say on par with the other terrain beliefs, desert and forest/jungle, all ok, maybe open sky is a bit better since I can remove forest/jungle but cant plant these.
2. Yes the gg interaction is very strong.
3. Orders scale insane with wars, pagodas .. not sure, I prefer mosques (with fealty+hero worship) but I could very well be wrong and pagodas are better.
4. I can see the benefit for a more peaceful game, warmonger then you conquer and eventually your religion (usually) wins.
I'd rather go syncretism if Im not keeping up to pressure, zelotry and mendiancy are also nice.
I think Zelotry also net you resource monopolies faster (but could be wrong here as well).
5. You are maybe right, but as warmonger crusader spirit and defender are definitely contenders if not even preferred before that one.
 
My thoughts:

Ty for responding to all, I guess we disagree on most but I'll just counter on the ones I feel strongest about.

Food Corp: It completely removes unhappiness. Like I said, more pop is useful lategame for quite a few reasons. For the other corporations you need lots of franchises to be good but Twokay you just need to build the offices. I'd just say try it out, because to me it makes the endgame feel like a sandbox.

Lebensraum: I'd just say how fun would it be if someone else did it to you? Also it does pretty much win the war for you so it kinda removes fun in that way.
 
Food Corp: It completely removes unhappiness.

Yes.....and?

What makes twokay good is exactly what you noting, it requires minimal franchises so it kicks in quickly, and it removes unhappiness as a major factor, allowing unfettered growth. That is wonderful....and exactly what corps are supposed to do. Twokay used to be on the absolute garbage end of the corp spectrum, the unhappiness reductor has now made it a competitive corp....but not OP.... because at the end of the day I'm still not getting the RAW POWER that several of the other corps have to offer. I used Twokay in two recent games, and it was solid....and not once did it feel OP. I've had games with civilized jewelers that gave me +250% GPP, I've had Giorgio games where I had +120% culture in my capital, which was basically +100% culture to my entire civ.

Against those numbers, Two kay is solid but not even top tier imo, just a very nice solid corp that I don't mind having.
 
Yes.....and?

What makes twokay good is exactly what you noting, it requires minimal franchises so it kicks in quickly, and it removes unhappiness as a major factor, allowing unfettered growth. That is wonderful....and exactly what corps are supposed to do. Twokay used to be on the absolute garbage end of the corp spectrum, the unhappiness reductor has now made it a competitive corp....but not OP.... because at the end of the day I'm still not getting the RAW POWER that several of the other corps have to offer. I used Twokay in two recent games, and it was solid....and not once did it feel OP. I've had games with civilized jewelers that gave me +250% GPP, I've had Giorgio games where I had +120% culture in my capital, which was basically +100% culture to my entire civ.

Against those numbers, Two kay is solid but not even top tier imo, just a very nice solid corp that I don't mind having.
Case in point: I'm almost through my first India game this patch, with the opportunity to select either 2Kay or Jewelers, and it's still an easy decision to take Jewelers' GPP%, regardless 2Kay's growth synergy with Gandhi (my empire pop is already very high, and my happiness relatively stable while playing tall).
 
My thoughts on some of these:

Symbolism is really OP. It's existence tips me towards always picking tradition over progress.

There's generally very little reason not to build either Pyramids or Stonehenge. They give a lot for their cost.

There are a lot of situations I'd pick another corporation over TwoKay even if it gives infinite happiness. My last game with it as tradition it was the only corporation available and I just skipped building it. However this changes so much from patch to patch.

Spoiler Probably Super Unpopular Opinion :

I think Orders are an average belief for most civs, partially because zealotry is just average. They take an extremely long time to pay off.
  • First it's primary role is producing :c5faith: but it costs :c5faith: to set up. They won't help you enhance or reform faster in most games, and at that point :c5faith: just ain't that valuable. By default all you have are missionaries and inquisitors.
  • You must give up a lot of yields to pick zealotry. If you have authority you don't really need zealotry either, you have plenty of hammers and it's pretty easy to reach your supply cap (or go over it) without orders.
  • Faith buying great people won't be available until the industrial era. That's late.
  • A regular civ without orders can pretty easily afford several great people.
  • What great people are you even buying? Authority-Fealty-Imperialism gives you generals, artists and admirals. If you take to the glory of god, you gave up combat bonuses and yields.
  • The main benefit is the experience, which is strong but fair
I think it's a trap for warmongers. If you want to do a gunpowder push, take a belief that gives :c5science:. Unlocking tercio and muskets 10 turns earlier will do so much for you.
 
Last edited:
I agree on about half of these and I just think you are over stating on the others, other options seems viable to me.

Tribute + Lebensraum
Yeah this is a bit silly, it should just not trigger. The fact it gives more than an GE is just wrong.

Pagodas seem to jsut give the most yields and it isn't clear if they are bugged or not. They certainly show the wrong amounts in the city screen but I think that is just a display issue. But anyway they just give a lot more than anything else and provide so much happy.


I have no real opinion on boats or corporations, corporation in particular are very limited in options you just take what you can. Tanks being the best unit is true but also fine I think. It speeds up late game wars a lot and you can still fight them with bombers and rocket artillary.




Pantheons. I do agree open sky and stars and sky are powerful and there is a gap between the good ones and the bad ones but I think there are other good ones in the right situation. Goddess of nature can give huge yields with very little effort. All it takes is a NW and a mountain range and it is equal or better than others. It gives you a huge incentive to make cities clustered around mountains. Goddess of purity is fairly similar, if you have a bunch of lakes/marshes around your capital it provides a big early game boost. While not as strong as god of all creation in the short term you can found with either of these sometimes.

I like Symbolism with tradition but I'm a lot less keen with Authority or when your holy city isn't your capital. You get a lot of GP points but they are very spread out. I'm pretty happy with syncretism as rather than struggle vs the AI pressure all game I just let them flip and collect all the faith bough buildings.

Glory of God is certainly very good but it is hard to compare it to things like crusader spirit as they do such different things. I want to stack every possible combat buff, you can't really ever have too many. I'm happy to take rationlism and don't like either of the other tier 3 polices at all.
 
My thoughts on some of these:

Symbolism is really OP. It's existence tips me towards always picking tradition over progress.

There's generally very little reason not to build either Pyramids or Stonehenge. They give a lot for their cost.

There are a lot of situations I'd pick another corporation over TwoKay even if it gives infinite happiness. My last game with it as tradition it was the only corporation available and I just skipped building it. However this changes so much from patch to patch.

Spoiler Probably Super Unpopular Opinion :

I think Orders are an average belief for most civs, partially because zealotry is just average. They take an extremely long time to pay off.
  • First it's primary role is producing :c5faith: but it costs :c5faith: to set up. They won't help you enhance or reform faster in most games, and at that point :c5faith: just ain't that valuable. By default all you have are missionaries and inquisitors.
  • You must give up a lot of yields to pick zealotry. If you have authority you don't really need zealotry either, you have plenty of hammers and it's pretty easy to reach your supply cap (or go over it) without orders.
  • Faith buying great people won't be available until the industrial era. That's late.
  • A regular civ without orders can pretty easily afford several great people.
  • What great people are you even buying? Authority-Fealty-Imperialism gives you generals, artists and admirals. If you take to the glory of god, you gave up combat bonuses and yields.
I think it's a trap for warmongers. If you want to do a gunpowder push, take a belief that gives :c5science:. Unlocking tercio and muskets 10 turns earlier will do so much for you.

I think you are downplaying the other things orders does. While the faith generation is the best it does do a number of other things. The promotion makes it easier to build units if you want to churn them out.(or i guess gives a promotion if you build outside your capital) 15exp helps push units towards the 4th level up much quicker which is where units get really powerful.

I don't like zealotry much, I'm fine just buying GP with them later on. Sure it is later but it scales up so much better than the other buildings. You can buy a lot of GP even if they get really expensive. I don't like Imperialism so I'm buying GS with rationlism.

That said I don't take it first and the AI does take it a lot so I guess I'm somewhere in the middle, taking order if they are open but it isn't needed.
 
I'm not so sure about Stonehenge being a good rush any more on the recent patches. I see King AIs settling their second cities around turn 55 on epic, while I finish monument and Stonehenge around turn 45. Comparatively a normal monument -> shrine -> settler, can get me a pantheon around turn 65 which is not too bad in a game with few or no religious civs.

Agree a bit about the melee ships. Cruisers and later cost Iron, which have been ridiculously scarce in all my recent games in Communitu. Taking melee ships without an army to fight a serious coastal city does not seem to be a good idea to me. To me they do the job of killing AI ships just fine, making the actual assault easier.
 
So what is the deal with Symbolism?
Is it that on higher difficulty you are behind on science so tech goes faster (thanks to rebate) and need the policy rebate for wonders? (I rarely have an issue with this but maybe not pushing science hard enough?)
Or is it the GPP points? (I can see this make a difference as maya for example who can enhance very early.)
Or the missionaries acting like semi inquisitors?
 
I would be totally cool with Orders losing Morale. I think it really hurts Heroic Epic that you can get a belief building that just overwrites it. I would at least start there for nerfing Orders and kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

I disagree with TtGoG being OP. If that were the case then I would instead assert that other Reformation beliefs need to "Get on that level". TtGoG ought to be the yardstick by which other Reformation beliefs are measured, in light of how stable it has been since vanilla, similar to how I tried to balance Celt pantheons using Rhiannon as the baseline.

At any rate, I don't pick TtGoG in even most of my games with a Reformation. If I am actually focusing GPs then Knowledge through Devotion is much stronger, and I'm generally most interested in the GP types I already unlocked from my policy trees. So TtGoG just closes some gaps, and if I'm not prioritizing GPs I often don't care about those gaps anyhow.

Re: 2Kay solving happiness forever, I won't belabour the point beyond what other have said already. I like how 2Kay just obliterates a game mechanic, and I think other corporations should do similar things. Civilized Jewelers needs to be nerfed, however, because it obliterates 2 game mechanics: Permanent GAs and massive stacking %GPP modifiers.
2Kay eradicates needs. Firaxite makes your TRs invincible. Civilized stops GAs from ending and more than doubles GPP rates on empire. I feel like the remaining Corps could do similar things by having stacking bonuses or other abilities that just "solve" a single late game issue.

Like maybe Centaurus could give +5% global worker speed per office, and Hexxon Offices could give double resource quantity, like a EIC in all cities, and Trader Sid's could give -2% Building maintenance on Empire, and just eliminate gold maintenance that way.
 
Last edited:
> Basically gives you more production then a great engineer, when you use a citadel, which already feel pretty strong as stealing tiles can be a huge benefit in wars.

Damn. Am I stupid for not noticing this or is it hidden from Instant Yields?
 
Not only does Tribute give you the :c5production: of a GE it also gives you the :c5gold: of a GM! I agree the interaction should go.

I think Orders are an average belief for most civs, partially because zealotry is just average. They take an extremely long time to pay off.

On this I think Orders are actually a really good tool for Tradition civs now, those that have realized around T80 their political situation is bad and will remain bad forever. They will have to fight defensive wars and kill lots of invading units, gaining nothing from it because they aren't Authority. Orders serve a lot of purposes in this case, not just Faith but also letting you have all morale troops without stressing the already busy Capital, having better higher XP troops in general, having more City Defense (which discourages declares too.)

WRT Lebensraum, if we want to keep it on account of flavor maybe it should be a higher tier tenant, at least not tier 1.

I agree Symbolism and TTGOG are overcentralizing. I think Sacred Calendar is the "fair" version of Symbolism, if you wanna edit Symbolism that's a good guide. As for TTGOG I dunno, maybe it could reduce :c5faith: GP costs by a lot instead, like by 30-50%, so you were better at the Great People you fairly earned instead of just getting all of them and invalidating a bunch of earlier choices.
 
For Lebensraum it is fun, but it could be more balanced.
Maybe you would somehow need to use 2 GG for it to work, one to make the citadel and one to expand the borders further, but that seems hard to understand not only for the AI but even for the human.
I think a long term solution is a better with AI to stealing tiles, like a grievances system where if they stole your land you can attack them without people getting mad. This means the AI could also attack sooner when it sees this happening possibly.
 
[QUOTE="InkAxis, post: 16113276, member: 325136]
Maybe you would somehow need to use 2 GG for it to work, one to make the citadel and one to expand the borders further, but that seems hard to understand not only for the AI but even for the human.
[/QUOTE]

a simple way to mimic that is to remove the adjacency restrictions of citadels, so you can make citadels right next to each other (including enemy ones). So you can still push the borders deep but with much greater expense.

on the one hand it still reduces the border expansion part, but it does open up more defensive configurations so you get a little back, it’s not a complete nerf (even though it’s overall a nerf)
 
Last edited:
1. Pantheons: Open Sky, God of Stars and Sky
I haven't found the right start for Open Sky for a long time, thanks to the diversity of terrain in Communitu_79a and the reduction of pasture resource amounts.

Stars and Sky is a more common pick, but I miss the gold that it used to give. Tundra starts can really lack gold, especially with Authority (high production + low science = all buildings built early = forced to train more units).

2. Tribute (Authority Policy).
Just remove its interaction with Great Generals like it used to.

3. Pagodas + Orders
Pagodas look broken in Pangaea when every city probably has 5 different religions. In Continents the big yields won't come until Astronomy, which is fine.

Orders is a common pick when I'm playing Authority, mainly for the extra XP and the faith it generates when you start to take more cities.

3. Melee boats (Corvette onwards).
They're fine in my mod with nerfed CS and an added weakness to ranged ships. Ironclad also loses that city attack promotion.
Blitz should be changed to remove all remaining movement points when the second attack is used, just like Logistics.

4. EDIT - Symbolism.
Uniquely getting Great Musicians before anyone else (Celts excluded) can access them. I like that part, but it could lose the Engineer, Scientist, Merchant and Diplomat points and still be good.

5. To the Glory of God.
I don't pick this unless I really want to have as many Writers/Scientists as possible.

6. Twokay Food Corporation.
No more unhappiness, but that's the only thing it does. Other corporations can just be as broken.

7. Lebensraum (Autocracy Policy).
I think this is great even without the Tribute yields.
 
I agree that tribute/lebensraum should have their yields removed on Citadel bomb. I don’t recall the building and trait equivalents doing it, so it’s a consistency issue as well.
 
Top Bottom