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Some unique units.

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Funak, Jan 29, 2016.

  1. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    I've been talking about this for ages, and I never get anywhere with it so I'll just post it here and turn it into a discussion rather than a statement.

    First of all, some unique units are better than other unique units, that's pretty much unavoidable, intentional and so no. Fixing that is not the major concern here.


    Okay here we go, some there are multiple units in need of some form of rebalancing, there are also a few major decisions that have to be made at some point, concerning unique units in general.


    1.
    I'll start with the big thing, there are quite a few unique units that currently just upgrades like any other unit, nothing of value is carried on. This has always been the case but with more units getting better and a lot of them having promotions that carry on when upgraded, a decision needs to be made if keeping these unique units around to upgrade should be worth it or not.



    2.
    Some units have clear problems performing their duty, this is mostly true about units in the early techs, that go obsolete really quickly.

    This whole point is mostly here because of the rework of the Pictish warrior. The Pictish warrior turned out REALLY good, and just by existing lowers the value of all the related units.

    Pictish warrior
    +2 CS
    +25% CS and double movement in hills.
    +200% CS as faith on kill
    +Free pillage
    -50% CS bonus vs mounted
    Available at mining instead of Bronzeworking.


    Immortal
    +1 CS
    Double healing promotion


    Hoplite
    +2 CS
    Great general II promotion (no clue how much this one actually provides as there is no info about it, thinking about it, there should probably be some information about it in the civpedia)

    I chose to bunch these together to illustrate a point, if you combine the Hoplite and the Immortal into one unit, it would still be worse than the Pictish Warrior.
    Even the detail that the Pictish warrior is available earlier gives it so much more time to be awesome before it goes obsolete. Anyways something about these two spearman replacements have to change.


    Jaguar
    +33% CS in Forest/Jungle
    +Double movement in forest/jungle
    +25 heal when killing a unit


    First of all, let me just say that the Jaguar certainly isn't bad. In fact, even with all the bad things I'm about to say about it, it is probably one of my favorite unique units.
    However, the problems with the Jaguar are simply that it goes obsolete before you have a chance to use it. Spearmen are two techs into the tech-tree and the Jaguar keeps all the bonuses when upgraded, so there just isn't any reason not to rush bronzeworking and upgrade them as soon as you can. This isn't exactly the 'intended' way to utilize a unique unit. Of course the Jaguar isn't exactly the only unique unit that upgrades well, but I don't think there is any other unique unit with so few techs between it and it's upgrade.

    I would suggest a minor rework of the Jaguar, making it not upgrade into a spearman, but instead maybe a pikeman or a swordsman. This would require increasing the base CS of the unit, and would probably have to coincide with a minor nerf to something else, perhaps a slight increase in hammer cost. A reasonable level would be to make it cost as much as an archer and probably have 12 CS. It would make the Aztec early-game stronger, but melee units aren't really fantastic at attacking cities, so all this would result in is hunting down units and stealing workers (something that fits the Aztec and Jaguar theme pretty well)
     
  2. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    I could get behind Jags being stronger, otherwise you would spend your UA's (FAith and Gold from Kills) Gold on Upgrading them.

    How about giving Immortals some defensive promotion to keep "immortal".
     
  3. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    That's just the thing, it isn't even a problem getting the gold to upgrade them, it is just something that you do. It's as if the Jaguar doesn't even exist by itself.

    Their healing is fairly strong, I think just buffing their CS and possibly bringing them to the same tech as the pictish warrior would be fine.

    The early-game units are kind of a mess, I don't know if perhaps the spearman should just be moved to iron-working instead perhaps.
     
  4. Zanteogo

    Zanteogo King

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    I find, two factors make the biggest difference if the UU is good or not:

    How much, if anything of the units special abilities is kept after upgrade?

    How close do you get the unit to the mid game point, when the biggest and most deciding wars occur?

    Generally, units that you get early, that don't keep any of the UA after their upgrade are pooh. They are very dependent on you being ready for war at that point in the game. Usually waring just for the sake of doing it actually weakens your civ over all.
     
  5. Myrrdin_Emrys

    Myrrdin_Emrys Warlord

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    How about giving Immortal some Golden Age point per Kill (scaling with era ?) ? to synergize with their unique abilitie ? (unit stronger while in GA)
     
  6. ilteroi

    ilteroi Prince

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    there is also the aspect of skillful handling by the AI.

    there are some unique units the AI has a hard time using properly, thus giving an inherent advantage to human players and even other AI players who don't waste resources on units they don't know how to use.

    in particular, city attack only units are such a case. ideas for replacements / changes to siege towers and battering rams are welcome.
     
  7. Vermicious Knid

    Vermicious Knid King

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    Assyrian heavy chariot, replacing horseman?

    Hun javelineer, replacing spearman (possibly weaker with spearthrow promotion)?
     
  8. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Last time I suggested a rework for Assyria I got shut down by people saying the tower is awesome and should stay. My ideas are still in that Assyria-thread, and they are still all awesome.
     
  9. Babri

    Babri Emperor

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    You made a fair point regarding Jaguars. I think they should upgrade to swordsmen as vanilla & have higher base strength & cost to compensate.

    Immortals should get golden age points for killing units like they did in CEP. This would make them synergize really well with their UA without turning them OP.

    Hopelites could gain 33% bonus against melee units (spears/swords/pikes etc).

    I think there were some really wonderful ideas in CEP that we can definitely incorporate in CPP to make some dull UUs more exciting.
     
  10. Kolaris

    Kolaris Warlord

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    I actually haven't played Aztecs, but to check: Jaguars go obsolete with Pikes, right? So you can build either Spears or Jaguars all the way to Steel?
     
  11. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Correct.
     
  12. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    Many of those CEP changes sound good. Should keep them relevant when you upgrade them.
     
  13. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    What about making jaguar a unique Spearman unit that is available from the start of the game? Would let aztecs stay aggression early but is balanced because of the increased production cost.
     
  14. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Current in-testing changes to the three in-consideration units:

    G
     
  15. pandasnail

    pandasnail Prince

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    I actually set up this for my own fun. 10 CS Spearmen replacements on Agriculture. My one game sample has resulted in Monty getting second religion by the UA, but he's done almost no damage to major civs. This game has a whole bunch of other mods, but I don't think that really affect early war.
     
  16. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    I would still suggest the Jaguar upgrading directly to a swordsman or a Pikeman, Spears just come way too early.
     
  17. Kolaris

    Kolaris Warlord

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    If you're worried about a 3rd unit generating GAP, I think it's far more fitting on Immortals than on Minutemen, and Pracinhas come so late as to be a non-factor.
     
  18. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    You don't have to upgrade immediately, and the value isn't great for doing so until you absolutely have to.

    G
     
  19. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Maybe not, but the spears come to early that you're either going to be in a situation where the upgrade is worth it, and you'll rush bronzeworking, or you're going to be in a situation where upgrading is not worth it and people are going to get pissed off about paying full upgrade-price for no value. I'm just trying to avoid that situation completely.



    @Kolaris This is probably more the case of generating GAP isn't very useful. Persia already have tools for generating GAP later on, and too early golden ages are usually just painful (because they increase the price of later golden ages). The defense-bonus seems really solid to me actually I would probably bump the combat-strength up to the same value as the other two spearman replacements, but other than that it looks solid.



    Back to the initial topic, how do people feel about the units that lose all their power by upgrading, should they be changed or should they remain as they are?
     
  20. Der_Zorn_gottes

    Der_Zorn_gottes King

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    I wish that they would lose their specialty on upgrade.
     

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