Something to do with Ancient Forests

[Neomega]

What's wrong with Treants? Why would you have a problem with being given that awesome power ?

They;'re not exactly an insurmountable obstacle. All someone has to do is run away until their lifetime expires. Isn't it 3 turns or so efore hey return to the forest?

3 turns of essentially a 16 power (10 * 60% for forests) is pretty powerful, plus your units is stuck with his junk in the wind. Invisible units don't get to do this.

I mean, ancient forests and elves already have so many advantages. I guess I forgot to mention, overall as a civ, I hate Ljosalfar. They always seem to end up being the most powerful civ.

 

[WarKirby]

I had the misfortune of running into some treants yesterday. The lanun had concerted to FoL and I wandered into their ancient forests.

Luckily for me, I'm playing Svartalfar, and I made it a policy to get Woodsman I and II for almost all of my units.

I weakened a treant with alazkan's illusion, and finished it off with my power ranger (I just had to say that. lv12 ranger)

16 strength really isn't that bad. Hell, high strength doesn't even work when the four horsemen do it with their 20+ strength.

All it means is that you need a little more cannon fodder to soften them up. A single unit is easily defeatable regardless of it's strength, unless it brings big powerful spells like Auric.

 

[Neomega]

I had the misfortune of running into some treants yesterday. The lanun had concerted to FoL and I wandered into their ancient forests.

Luckily for me, I'm playing Svartalfar, and I made it a policy to get Woodsman I and II for almost all of my units.

I weakened a treant with alazkan's illusion, and finished it off with my power ranger (I just had to say that. lv12 ranger)

16 strength really isn't that bad. Hell, high strength doesn't even work when the four horsemen do it with their 20+ strength.

All it means is that you need a little more cannon fodder to soften them up. A single unit is easily defeatable regardless of it's strength, unless it brings big powerful spells like Auric.

its pretty bad in the age of warriors and archers

 

[JonathanStrange]

To get that early turn 70 treant defender - which, btw is incredibly fast for a non-AI player on Normal speed to have FoL by then - you have to

* spend over 2000 on a technology path that meanwhile
* forces you to rely mostly on warriors and hunters and hope
* that the 1 in 20 chances of a treant appearing (1 in 7 with a Leaf Temple)
* in an unoccupied Ancient Forest tile, the few you have
* assuming the invader doesn't avoid them anyway
* and if the treant actually appears and defeats an enemy
* his comrades run away 'til Treebeard dies ("This unit will expire in +2 turns")

It's hard to base a defense on treants; they're an occupational hazard when attacking an FoL nation with ancient forests, little more. I suppose invaders remember the treant appearances best whereas we FoL followers see the 95% of the time where no treant appears and enemies roam virtually at will pillaging cottages, farms and other improvements.

Yes, early game, the treant (and I stress the 'cause he is usually alone) is powerful and crushes the unwary warrior or two, esp. if they stick around in the forest, rather than lurking a turn or two at its edge until his sap dries up.

By the middle/late game, our lone, valiant treant hero, should he appear, often finds himself faced with a AI stack of heavily promoted troopers who don't have to run away for a turn or two.

Don't get me started on the myth of "The March of the Trees."

We chessplayers have a saying, "The threat is stronger than the execution" and it's very true for the treants.

(It's sounds like I'm all doom-and-gloom for the treants, but in truth: I like them. They do what they can. They're very thematic, very atmospheric. It does make an enemy think twice (before going ahead as planned ) I do think if treants were "all that" we'd have lots of Ljos players boasting of all the Clan or Sheaim or Doviello butts they'd been kickin' with a bunch of trees and some archers - it just isn't happenin' though.

And if the treant is tough in the early days, well... he should be or why bother? Besides he's still rare and alone, with the days of warriors rapidly passing...i)

 

[Thunder_Gr]

We chessplayers have a saying, "The threat is stronger than the execution" and it's very true for the treants.

Yes, it definatelly true to most strategic games, where threats are considered...

 

[Ribusprissin]

I've gotten lumbermills in ancient forests plenty of times, by simply building the lumbermill before the forest ages. I don't know if this works with non-elf civs though.

 

[Verdian]

In general, keeping some forests near your city is worth it for the health. Ancient Forests just make these few forests you decide to keep better. That is my understanding of the intended mechanic.

However, I have a suggestion for people that would like to be build on Ancient Forests! Let Hidden Paths (or some other tech) grant FoL followers a new national unit: the dryad. It could build improvements on forest tiles, but it does so at half (or maybe even a third) the speed of normal workers. Lore-wise, this represents the dyrad spending time nurturing and getting permission from the forest to let the required improvements be built, so that the forest stays healthy and alive. Balance-wise, it lets players build in forests, but at a very slow pace, especially as you can only make four dryads (so the elves are still the best at forest building).

Nothing like suggesting solutions for things you don't think are a problem.

 

[DaleKing]

or what if the ancient forests didn't happen automatically? the priest of leaves could have a spell similar to that "plant trees" spell to convert regular forests into ancient ones.

 

[cabbagemeister]

About treants: I don't know if this is common knowledge, but it's very easy for the human player to NEVER trigger a treant attack when invading an enemy. All you have to do is use a fireball as a pathfinder. Fireballs will never trigger treant spawns (I don't know if it's because of unitcombat issues, but it's never happened for me in hundreds of opportunities). Once the fireball is in the AF square, the rest of the stack can move into the AF without triggering the treant, because it's no longer "unoccupied".

Once you know this trick, the deterrent value of treants becomes essentially nil.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

About treants: I don't know if this is common knowledge, but it's very easy for the human player to NEVER trigger a treant attack when invading an enemy. All you have to do is use a fireball as a pathfinder. Fireballs will never trigger treant spawns (I don't know if it's because of unitcombat issues, but it's never happened for me in hundreds of opportunities). Once the fireball is in the AF square, the rest of the stack can move into the AF without triggering the treant, because it's no longer "unoccupied".

Once you know this trick, the deterrent value of treants becomes essentially nil.

OK, if Kael read that, I wouldn't be surprised if it gets fixed somehow

 

[Kainkenny]

OK, if Kael read that, I wouldn't be surprised if it gets fixed somehow

I don't think it must gets fixed, because it's logical: Treants are made of wood, so fireballs scare them, and they stay hidden...

 

[MagisterCultuum]

About treants: I don't know if this is common knowledge, but it's very easy for the human player to NEVER trigger a treant attack when invading an enemy. All you have to do is use a fireball as a pathfinder. Fireballs will never trigger treant spawns (I don't know if it's because of unitcombat issues, but it's never happened for me in hundreds of opportunities). Once the fireball is in the AF square, the rest of the stack can move into the AF without triggering the treant, because it's no longer "unoccupied".

Once you know this trick, the deterrent value of treants becomes essentially nil.

Flying units will never trigger treants, since the unit is presumably passing over the trees rather than disturbing them. Fireballs just happen to have the flying promotion.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

I don't think it must gets fixed, because it's logical: Treants are made of wood, so fireballs scare them, and they stay hidden...

Not so good a reason not to fix an exploit...
Fireballs are not supposed to scout, they are not supposed to be summons at all, in case someone has forgotten...

 

[Azhral]

Easy answer. Give Fireballs no visibility range, so they can't actually see anything. Still, they could still be used to stop the treants...

Since someone else was going on about there not being enough Treants, how about give a chance for a treant to spawn for every unit moving onto a tile. So really massive stacks might summon a couple of them.

 

[zup]

Treants are a merely a factor that discourages invading FoL lands early. Who'd want to lose a level 12 axeman, who does not stand a chance (aka >99.9% win odds) against a treant. On the other hand, when the ex-axeman, now a level 25 immortal comes in...

In case your strategy involves expendable units (as in built, permanent units, not summons) advancing ahead of the stack to pop treants, I guess it is not impossible to safely invade FoL lands.

 

[Serbitas]

Got a treehugger neighbour ? slave him down and let the elf slaves improve your ancient forest!

 

[Ribusprissin]

I'm pretty sure whether you can build on forests is dependent on civ race, not worker race.

 

[dyx]

How about being able to search for mushrooms? Meaning to build those rare edible mushrooms that pop up sometimes. That would make sense, it's actually in the game and other civs than Elves would get a nice effect out of those forests without taking away the Elves' uniqueness.

 

[JonathanStrange]

Since someone else was going on about there not being enough Treants, how about give a chance for a treant to spawn for every unit moving onto a tile. So really massive stacks might summon a couple of them.

Probably I was the person "going on about there not being enough Treants" (although to me it's several other people "going on about there being any Treants"), I merely argued that a 5% (15% w Leaf Temple) chance of a Treant appearing isn't particularly threatening and as an FoL Ljosalfar player, I don't count on it much. I've seen too many strangers freely wandering through my forests.

I don't suggest any changes with Treant appearances since so many people already think there are too much and making it more likely if a massive stack moves through, would probably generate a thread about making Treants immobile or strength 4 or barbarian or on the invader's side...

 

[dyx]

That's because Treants are about chances and perception... some people tried to rush an Elf player and their warriors got kicked out by a treemonster... others were being attacked and no treemonster appeared. So it's both too strong and too weak.
I recently played a very long Svart game (always playing marathon) and had very long wars against my Hippus neighbours and later Balseraphs... due to me not being an offensive player and liking my defensive mountain range too much. Anyways, while I got attack very often over the course of hundreds of turns, I had only a handful of Treants and the only case it helped, was against an early Hippus stack.
Later on then the enemy appears with larger stacks accompanied by Longbowmen you can kill one unit, max and that's it.
On the other hand there were plenty of cases where no tree appeared and I had to work to keep my workers safe from those commando horselords striking deep into my territory like guided missiles. "Fog of War? To hell with that I'm teh AI and I know where that 10 worker stack is!". One of the cases I reaload, because it's just ridiculous.
Anyways, I find the whole Treant issue just pointless. I can't plan on it appearing, so I don't and thus I don't need them. If one appears it's just "oh well, nice I can kill one unit which I could kill anyways, neglecting my units exp" or "oh well, those Longbowmen have good chances of killing it, thus giving the enemy exp".
It would be better if it could be solved via an event, which can only appear every 10 turns or so. Something like "The enemy entered your forests and the trees rise to defend".