Something to offer !

[Barra]

Again, first things first:
Im sorry to forgot mentioning the really nice work done to automated traderoutes in my foregoing Feedback post.
Really, Really good job,THAT is programmers work , not what I have to offer.

But anyway, after my proposal of giving the tile improvements a unique or highlighted color, I decided to take a look at it on my own.
After I found and changed it, I saw how easy it was and than I decided to fix something wich was bothering me for a long time in colo and which also allows me to give something back to the community for countless hours of fun I had with this DLC so far.

Now to what I have to offer:

A text editing "mod" which brings the Logging-Tab to life by marking important texts, citys, players, goods and more, with a rather unique color code. This leads to an easy (or even fun) to read logging tab, which therefor helps, reading and extracting the info of it at the top log scroll section too.
I also let citynames always beeing marked in texts, tooltip info for plots now shows improvements and roads in color code...

This all started by a semi automated approach , which showed to work out very nice, on this basis I "polished" it quite a while, at all this tooked me approx. 60Hours of work. Im not done with it yet but what is done so far, could be released.

Now I need your opinions on it, do you like it, do you think its too much of color or would you prefer other colors or do you have found any bugs or "logic" issues?
Maybe you even have suggestions of what should be color coded also?!


I would love to see it implemented into WTP for sure

BTW: This Edit mod works for ALL languages , but because Im just able to read english and german, these two got the most love.

And...here...it...is:
https://pasteboard.co/K3ELsoo.jpg

Spoiler :

Edit: The attached folder content has to be extracted into the WTP mod folder

 

[Mr. ZorG]

many bright colors - they will tire the eyes. but the idea is good, I like it.

 

[raystuttgart]

@Barra:

Thanks a lot for this contribution.
It looks really nice and we really appreciate such motivation and effort.

I have only taken a first look now but chances are good that it will get integrated.
First I need to discuss it with @Nightinggale and other team members though.

Currently I can not see any reason why we should not integrate it.
Maybe you also want to join our internal modders community and want to become a supporter / partner?

Edit:
You really called your City ingame F***TheKing ?

 

[Barra]

many bright colors - they will tire the eyes. but the idea is good, I like it.

Really too bright, do you tested it already? My intention was to lessen the tiring of the eyes with these edits, please give it a try over a playthrough, I would say you would love to see the infos at a glance alone in the top scroll bar or for sure in the logging/combat logging tab)
But as mentioned before, Im open for changes, after the work had been done, its a ease to change colors...
I will wait for further input
Thx for your input!

@Barra:

Thanks a lot for this contribution.
It looks really nice and we really appreciate such motivation and effort.

I have only taken a first look now but chances are good that it will get integrated.
First I need to discuss it with @Nightinggale and other team members though.

Currently I can not see any reason why we should not integrate it.
Maybe you also want to join our internal modders community and want to become a supporter / partner?

Edit:
You really called your City ingame F***TheKing ?

Thank you, very much.
For sure this has to be cleared with the members and playtested!
Atleast there is a chance to get it integrated, what makes me happy
I dont know if I should become a support partner, I had done this in quarantaine, but this is now over and so is my sparetime


And yes, the name fits to the attitude of my colonists, by this greedy "king" asking for even more taxes all the time

 

[Nightinggale]

Currently I can not see any reason why we should not integrate it.

I know it's a bit late now, but one thing, which comes to my mind would be to create new tags and then let the DLL convert them to colors on load. This way we can make a config for each type or even disable a highlight.

On a related note we can mod the text xml loading and alter text as we like. This is a fairly unused feature so far, but if people have ideas for how to use this ability, then I'm all ears.

 

[Barra]

Modding the text xml´s is what i have done, this should not led to any mayor bugs, because its just text edits.
This was also done before by several integrations, but not overall "streamlined" for almost all text data.
SO its ready to go as I would say
But take your time, no hurry needed, IF you should decide to adding it, beeing safe for the DLC, then its the time

I found myself using the Logging text in the late game most, this is when you are overhelmed by the mass of citys and events that are appearing.
But its useful for the whole game, because the top scrolling text is now way easier to read, it builds patterns, so you didnt even need to read it at all, just by seeing the pattern you would know whats meant/happened.
By a sidenote, this edits also give the achievments and sidequests a more important note, before this edits i didnt even bothered with them, because they were sunk in a big white BLOB only disturbed by full red (very unreadable) notifications, with little to no important info, except for "stressing" the player by its full red....


If you want, you could set the original DLCs mod text data to compare with the edited files, using notepadd ++.
This way you would see what a MASSIVE ongoing this "edit mod" was


PS: also fixed some typos for english and german texts when I saw them, but fixing typos was not in focus.

 

[Mr. ZorG]

Really too bright, do you tested it already?

no, I just looked at the screenshot. I also had the idea of highlighting some text (names of cities, professions, etc.).
just too bright colors, in my opinion, it is better to replace them with calmer shades.
I'll try to test your file today.

 

[Fürstbischof]

@Barra: Good job!


Well, that's funny. These are almost exactly the same changes that I have successively transferred from 2.7.1 to 2.8.2.2 over the past 6 months working on and off with these files. Most of my changes haven't been committed yet since I couldn't keep up with the pace of changes made by Kendon while working in parallel on several dozen other files. (being sick in bed for over a week and a general decline in spare time didn't help either)

My main concern is to improve the overall readability of logs and messages in addition to pop-ups and tooltips. Colouring key words does wonders to readability but there is a thin line which and how many colours you use otherwise you're lost in colours. Compared to my earlier 2.7.1 version I've toned colouring somewhat down. 2.9 already includes part of my adjustments, e.g. the diplomacy and achievement texts. All changes have been tested with 2.8.2.2 which had the nasty side effect that all files have to be revised again to include the changes made by Kendon in the meantime...


@raystuttgart, @Nightinggale: given enough spare time (and bad wheather) on the weekend I might commit the 6 most relevant files on Monday

 

[raystuttgart]

@raystuttgart, @Nightinggale: given enough spare time (and bad wheather) on the weekend I might commit the 6 most relevant files on Monday

For me that is fine.
(I like the colouring and everything else I see.)

I am not sure yet though if the other team members like the colouring.
Maybe ask them first before commiting.

@Schmiddie @Nightinggale @Mr. ZorG
Please let @Fürstbischof know if he can adapt and commit this.

 

[Mr. ZorG]

I played a game with a file attachment.
as I said in the morning - too bright colors. sometimes the selection is too strong and disturbs the color scheme of the game. I think you need to make more neutral colors for some messages. but all this is just my personal subjective opinion)

however, I would also like to see the completed work of the Fürstbischof (in conversation with the natives, it would be desirable to highlight in color who they can train and what goods they need).

 

[Nightinggale]

I am not sure yet though if the other team members like the colouring.
Maybe ask them first before commiting.

Please let Fürstbischof know if he can adapt and commit this.

It's fine by me, but I still haven't received an answer to adding more keywords to text loading.

[COLOR_HIGHLIGHT_CITY_NAME]name[/COLOR_HIGHLIGHT_CITY_NAME]

If we do something like that in xml, then we can set the color in the DLL (possibly value from xml). Not only will this make the system use colors consistently, it will be easy to change.

I would however like to know if this is something we agree should be a feature and if so, which strings should we trigger on?

Also if acting on keyword is a thing, it can be used for whatever we want. Other ideas are welcome, like keywords for gamefont icons.

 

[raystuttgart]

as I said in the morning - too bright colors. sometimes the selection is too strong and disturbs the color scheme of the game. I think you need to make more neutral colors for some messages.

Ok, maybe @Fürstbischof can change the colours a bit.
(Search and replace of the colour tags should do it.)

however, I would also like to see the completed work of the Fürstbischof (in conversation with the natives, it would be desirable to highlight in color who they can train and what goods they need).

Me too.

 

[raystuttgart]

It's fine by me, but I still haven't received an answer to adding more keywords to text loading.

Sorry, I had overread that.

[COLOR_HIGHLIGHT_CITY_NAME]name[/COLOR_HIGHLIGHT_CITY_NAME]

Sounds great.

Will we make it XML configurable as well - considering colour values?
(Never actually saw the file that defined those colour values. )

I would however like to know if this is something we agree should be a feature and if so, which strings should we trigger on?

Yes, we agree.
(But do not ask me about colours - I have a very bad taste for such things.)

Colour Strings we need can problably taken from the examples of @Barra and @Fürstbischof.
Basically every "Type" we have in XML. (+ Stuff from other lists defined inXML: CityNames, GeneralNames, ShipNames, ...)

This list is most likely already complete.

Spoiler :

• Civilization
• Leader
• Founding Father
• Trait
  
• Yield
• Terrain
• TerrainFeature
• BonusRessource
  
• Improvement
  
• Building
• Profession
• Unit

• CityName
• GeneralName
• Admiral Name
  
• ShipName

----

Summary:
It is a lot of effort.
(Not necessary only the DLL but to actually set the highlighting in all the XML texts.)

 

[Nightinggale]

(Never actually saw the file that defined those colour values. )

Assets\XML\Interface\CIV4ColorVals.xml
We just haven't added that file to the mod, meaning we rely on the vanilla file. There is CIV4PlayerColorInfos.xml too.

Will we make it XML configurable as well - considering colour values?

Ideally yes. I just have to figure out how to do that considering xml load order. I think text is loaded before the color info file.

I want to do something where I add an xml file, which sets the keyword and the color for it. That way the keywords aren't even hardcoded in the DLL and can be expanded as needed.

• CityName

• GeneralName

• Admiral Name

• ShipName

Reminds me that we need to move those from CivilizationInfo into text xml files. They cause encoding issues when mixed with the data xml.

 

[Barra]

Now that I have time, gave me a few words:
Im fine with having a conversation of you about it, but I do not really understand why do you (the mayority, as it seems so far) think its to bright.

In fact in my opinion, the colors spices up the log and overall, they not only make it more ease to read and provides patterns, it also add a bit of color in a more or less colorless enviroment
SO for me this colors make me happier (its true) then just watching an all in one white/gray/brownish soup.
The colors letting the game appear also a bit more modern, like interactive helptexts in modern games, sadly this is in our case just a "fake" but anyway...

Before the edits we just got a white blob, who of you read it or used it as info source and who of you was fine with the blant white and red?
If there is argueing about too bright colors, then I would say the full red "nonsense" messages were too bright
As I said the colors could be turned down, I will take a look at it BUT this probably also means that is bad to be read in the top scrollbar, please keep in mind the opacity of the top scroll bar, if the colors are to calm the effect is lost.
I tried to use just a handfull of colors.
to name them
Primary:
[COLOR_HIGHLIGHT_TEXT][COLOR_REVERT] (the default yellow) mostly used for citynames
[COLOR_POSITIVE_TEXT] default green, mostly used for own units or positive effects
[COLOR_NEGATIVE_TEXT] same as green but vice versa

then not nearly as often:
[COLOR_CYAN] just for science buildings + the improvements
and
[COLOR:240:10:240:150] the pinkish color JUST for the goods, when taxes are going up and down

both cyan and another color(in this case the pinkish) were needed to distingush these messages from the rest, this way you see at first glance, ah ok pinkish = market price variation
cyan as part of a message = sience building
full cyan (really short texts) are JUST for reaching an achievement.
BUT ok the CYAN might be to "poppy"...

then last I used :
[COLOR_FONT_CREAM] and/or [COLOR_FONT_GOLD] , this is a calm down color, for not so needed texts, like the sell spam messages of taverns and co. ( btw. is it possible to combine them in ONE message log entry per round?) , like the goods needed to finish building projekt, names of citys in gui windows and the roads (especially for the roads I wanted to have a calm color too but the improvements were choosen in CYAN by full intention, I wanted to see which improvement exists at the tile just by seeing the popping cyan)

so the amount of colors is hard to reduce ( I even thought about making units every time when they are mentioned in a own color, this would help readbility, in my eyes a lot, but I guess then you guys where out with pitchforks hunting me )
changing the colors is often BUT not every time, simple solved by replacing this tags with the desired one, but in some cases one var has two meanings, such as own unit and foe unit, this is, atleast in the text files one var for both. So an automated change in the text files for example %s1_unit will break some of the logic that I tried to put into it.(friend / foe)
The same is for the build improvements, I intended to have the actual build improvement of a tile in another color then the one it would upgrade to, but this seems a bit buggy, dont know why...

If someone shows me how to mix the colors and add them as default color because, this shema: [COLOR:240:10:240:150] would not work in all files at all, I will be very happy to tone down them a bit.
Its to mention that [COLOR_NEGATIVE_TEXT] is already a calm down version of the default red [COLOR_WARNING_TEXT]


I tried to make the count/sum of color appearances in one row, not more then 3 colors (very seldom) and in most cases 1 ( 1color make just sense for spam like messages because you are not able to build patterns) or two color markers per row (my optimum), very seldom 3 markers per row, there were are 3 placed they make sense (atleast in my eyes, fe. XRounds til new UNIT is build in CITY by BLDG)
So its not like I did not have the same thoughts about beeing to colored at all, like you guys!

So may I ask you to provide exact examples, with somtimes its to bright I really dont know when this sometimes happens

@Barra: Good job!


Well, that's funny. These are almost exactly the same changes that I have successively transferred from 2.7.1 to 2.8.2.2 over the past 6 months working on and off with these files. Most of my changes haven't been committed yet since I couldn't keep up with the pace of changes made by Kendon while working in parallel on several dozen other files. (being sick in bed for over a week and a general decline in spare time didn't help either)

My main concern is to improve the overall readability of logs and messages in addition to pop-ups and tooltips. Colouring key words does wonders to readability but there is a thin line which and how many colours you use otherwise you're lost in colours. Compared to my earlier 2.7.1 version I've toned colouring somewhat down. 2.9 already includes part of my adjustments, e.g. the diplomacy and achievement texts. All changes have been tested with 2.8.2.2 which had the nasty side effect that all files have to be revised again to include the changes made by Kendon in the meantime...


@raystuttgart, @Nightinggale: given enough spare time (and bad wheather) on the weekend I might commit the 6 most relevant files on Monday

Thank you bishop, didnt know you/someone were already working at it, this is a bit...dissatisfying, because I dont wanted to make your work obsolete nor I want my work to be obsolete LOL
But you seems to have the same understanding/approach then me, add a few colors in a meaningfull way and voila almost the whole game feels more accessible and friendly...
Maybe you could recycle a bit of the edits I had done...
+ Im in eager anticipation of your works release




@Nightinggale I know you are very skilled/talented (thinking of the trade route logic), but In my little world you let it seems easier then it is, as mentioned before the texts at all dont follow a real logic or I just didnt get it even after these many copy and paste hours in the text files....
The citys for example sometimes are referred to as %s1_city , or %s2_city, often is %s1_cityname used (it does NOT distinguish between own and foe citys as I had learned) and so one, it seems the devs them self hadnt a clean line for it (keinen roten faden)
So I guess...in my limited understanding... changing this in the DLL will even make way more work then what is/was already provided, probably resulting in a "never done"


At all Im fine with all the feedback, that you even took the time to gave feedback, but (as you probably know best) its like a baby, you show it to someone and then the guys start arguing that its too big, too small , too less some-/anything, its a bit frustrating when you put so much effort into something and then its not "loved" as it is (the same what I do too in my "proposals" lol)


Thank you for reading this, in this bad grammar and with these much typos

 

[raystuttgart]

Hi guys,

so what is going to happen with this now?
I am not yet sure we mad a decision.

------

@Barra:

We really really appreciate the efforty you have invested.
And I already appreciate only the good intention and motivation to help in itself.

I can kind of estimate the huge effort this has been.
(This must have been several full weekends of modding.)

There is one huge problem though.
You did not coordinate this with us - the team.

Since you did this - based on an old public old - release, too much has already happened internally.
Almost all you did is already outdated and it will be less effort for us to more or less do it again from scratch.

So I am really sorry, but your effort seems to have been in vain ...

------

@team:

This is what I currently understand:

1. @Nightinggale and myself will create the XML Highlighting Tag System (for balancing colour values in XML)
2. After that has happened we give it to @Fürstbischof and @Kendon to use it in the text files. (Please then organize yourselves.)

So is this ok for everybody?

@Nightinggale:
Can we take this on our list of todos?
(The effort for the system should not be the big issue.)

@Fürstbischof and @Kendon :
Are you guys ok with that as well?
(You guys will actually have the monster task to rework all those text files ...)


These here might get specific "Colour Highlighting Tags in XML for balancing colour values":
(Additionally to the normal colour highlighting we already have.)

• Civilization
• Leader
• Founding Father
• Trait
  
• Yield
• Terrain
• TerrainFeature
• BonusRessource
  
• Improvement
  
• Building
• Profession
• Unit

• CityName
• GeneralName
• Admiral Name
  
• ShipName

 

[Barra]

I have to say I doubt the part:

"Since you did this - based on an old public old - release, too much has already happened internally.
Almost all you did is already outdated and it will be less effort for us to more or less do it again from scratch."


But its in your decision and you are the modders and moderators of these DLC gem, so its fully in your decision!
As it seems the people are anyway in thought that it is too bright...so ok.
To be honest I hadnt thought that this "mod/changes" would get so much resistance, because in my eyes it simply makes the log readable and therefor, too bright or not better then default....
It might be related to my presentation, I think.

When I have time again I will check for a 2nd color calm version and put it as a modmod in the general col modding thread.

Im still happy because of course I will continue using it on my own and I just wanted to share it AND I especially appreciate that this offer, brought some movement into it, the "idea" was discussed and then as you say even steps were taken to follow up or to better say excel on it.
(btw. it was kind of inspired by you ray , because of the nice efforts you always took to format your posts properly)

So thank you again for your work on this game, without you all I wouldnt have made this efforts because I just had stopped playing the game, years ago

 

[raystuttgart]

I have to say I doubt the part:

Why should I be lying to you?
(Even if I did, everything in our GIT repository - including internal development branch - is transparent to everybody.)

@Kendon and @Fürstbischof have been and are are still massively working on changing the texts in XML.
(The amount of changes / improvements they did in the last 2 months was incredible.)

When I have time again I will check for a 2nd color calm version and put it as a modmod in the general col modding thread.

There is no need for that.
Actually all further effort you would put into it would be wasted.

As I wrote here, we will create a new XML configurable Highligthing System that is more powerful and versatile:
(It will allow to easily configure colour values of "Highlighting" different types of information in XML.)

1. @Nightinggale and myself will create the XML Highlighting Tag System (for balancing colour values in XML)
2. After that has happened we give it to @Fürstbischof and @Kendon to use it in the text files. (Please then organize yourselves.)

So is this ok for everybody?

@Nightinggale:
Can we take this on our list of todos?
(The effort for the system should not be the big issue.)

@Fürstbischof and @Kendon :
Are you guys ok with that as well?
(You guys will actually have the monster task to rework all those text files ...)

------

To be honest I hadnt thought that this "mod/changes" would get so much resistance,

The idea does not get resistance.
We just want to solve it technically in a more elegant and easily configurable way.
(It might save us a lot of time in the future.)

------

Summary:

I undertand that you are disappointed. And I am sorry.
What you did was really done in good intention and also done very well.

The team has just decided to solve the same issue differently.
(With a technical solution which we consider easier to maintain and adjust to personal taste.)

 

[Fürstbischof]

As promised, the files have been committed on Monday. That took me 30+ hours for including the latest made by Kendon, removing duplicate tags, internally reorganising tags according to ingame usage, fixing typos etc. Most of the German texts should now be as good as the English regarding readability and colouring but in general they suffer from being slightly longer than the English texts. No time to thoroughly test the German texts but improving the texts is an ongoing process.

Colouring was (is!) always just an addition to support the enhanced readability by reorganising the text itself. Readability of the ingame logs was the starting point since these are just a wall of text thrown at the player which was usually ignored by many players. My works date back to 2.7.1 but I was then unable to post here in the forums due to some unknown problem of my German email provider which doesn't let pass certain emails sent by civfanatics. Giving it another try last year, I've ultimately dropped this problem at the doorstep of Thunderfall who nicely helped me get started.

Unfortunately, the text files had been completely reorganised in the meantime so that I had to start from scratch last year. Copying over my earlier changes one-by-one to 2.8.2.2 was not that funny. While working on the other text files revising texts I've polished and eventually verified these modifications by playing a 2.8.2.2 test game. Although I've seen the major part of my modifications already ingame there are quite a lot I haven't seen yet. Occasionally I'd to make a compromise otherwise the modifications look like what I wanted them to look like - your preferences might be different! Colouring has been used more sparingly than by Barra, it has to enhance the readability of the reorganised texts. There haven't been many colours used. A bit more variety would be nice, also with respect to the pedia texts, since we're using yellow text far too often.

To quickly get an overview over the changes made it helps to run a mature 1650+ game for several turns. Check the tooltips, too.

 

[Fürstbischof]

@Fürstbischof and @Kendon :
Are you guys ok with that as well?
(You guys will actually have the monster task to rework all those text files ...)

The work is already done. (minor polishing is to be done) Yes, it was a tremendous task. And still is, seeing that Kendon occasionally removed my changes so that I'll have to add them again. I've sunk several hundred hours in it.

1. @Nightinggale and myself will create the XML Highlighting Tag System (for balancing colour values in XML)

Well, I'm not sure if that is really needed. Actually it's 13 years to late. Keep in mind that the colouring of texts is not an end in itself. It just supports the overall readability. Depending upon the text, you want to colour the same key word differently which such a system won't allow you to do.

IMHO a generic colouring is only needed for the names of colonies and founding fathers.

CityName
Founding Father

Names of great leaders and ships would be nice to have, but are usually already taken care of since they're rarely used.

GeneralName
AdmiralName
ShipName

Colouring all the others on a regular basis would be way over the top. Circumstance, i.e. the actual text involved, is relevant for the occasional colouring.

Civilization
Leader
Trait
Yield
Terrain
TerrainFeature
BonusRessource
Improvement
Building
Profession
Unit