Soren Johnson's Old World

[SammyKhalifa]

Sabium the Cunning died during a swim in the river at age one.

WHERE ARE THE ADULTS?!?!?!

 

[Stringer1313]

First, you're referencing tactics, not strategy. Strategy is your forward-thinking plan, tactics are what you execute in a short-term reactive fashion. Strategy is best-suited to focus on the tangible and quantifiable, with only diversion of resources to all the things that have a .5% chance of happening. That would be self-defeating.

Secondly, if you can realistically plan for something random, it's not all that random, and note that it's not what folks are going to take issue with in The Old World. In a card game, you have to plan for certain cards showing up in another player's hands. But that's not something truly random, which is why you can get tossed out of a casino for counting cards. No, random in the context that many are referring to here is the chance that a cyborg gorilla will crash through the skylight and slice off your hands with its laser-banana.

There's a difference between suddenly tossed a curveball (challenging) or being spread into paste by a boulder (demoralizing). If a game is going to pelt you with a thousand things with a minute chance of happening, no one of them should be that boulder, and the confluence of random events that can shatter an empire should be infrequent enough to be amusing anomalies.

The part you missed in your eagerness to disagree is that it's a matter of degrees.

Ok I see your point. I see that your issue is with truly random events, and i concede that's what these are. But I enjoy them -- with the exception of anticipating a Teleportation Invasion -- and i recognize others don't. And i haven't had any of my well-laid plans suddenly go to pot because of a random event, whereas it seems to have happened for you-- though having said that, if you are min-maxer, then I can see how the current random events are frustrating. I am not a min-maxer and i enjoy roleplaying b/c i think it's fun. So selfishly i hope they keep it in. Although, even then, I started a new game where I am building a TON more military units (and now i see what the food is for!).

 

[tzu]

Scouts have no combat value and are just speedbumps, but maybe a line of speedbumps followed by an army of Archers can annihilate the enemy. But the speed you can replace troops makes it so that if you lose a substantial amount with little cost to the enemy, you are headed for the dustbin of history.
[...]
Right now the AI civilizations, not so much the Barbs, have a vantage on approach that appears to let them unerringly blitzkrieg your troops from out of the fog and it might as well be a meteor strike. Has anyone found a way to defend against this? Or implement this as a tactic they can use? Am I neglecting my borders by not posting a unit every 3 hexes as a wall of zone of control? Should I be filling the open fields with Forts?

Scouts have better vision (see farther) than warriors, that can be used to do reconnaissance during war towards enemy cities and detect earlier moves of their units.

Dependent on terrain (forest, scrub?) and territory (neutral / other civ) Scouts are invisible to other civs (ie. less need for combat value) -- little eye above them (where warriors have the sword indicating they had already a fight in this turn).

 

[steveg700]

Backgammon has more strategy than chess. If you want to distinguish between strategy and tactics, then chess is more tactical.

Chess is a game of strategy, because it's all about predicting all possible moves given that there is no hidden information. Not for nothing, but that's pretty well-established over centuries of people spending their lives fixated on it. When you hear people talking about planning ten moves ahead of someone, this is the game they're referencing. Chess is not the game to try to redefine.

That's completely wrong. You can realistically plan for random outcomes in backgammon even though the dice rolls are truly random.

It's utterly correct, and in a sense you are helping to prove it. What you did not account for is that dice are subject to a law of averages. If you roll two dice, you know seven is the most likely result and two and twelve are the least. Similar to the concept of counting cards.

 

[steveg700]

Every city build category has, essentially, a Workshop. I've discovered that Forums pay back huge dividends, as that means you can get your Archives and Libraries up quickly, run a quick Festival if need be.

I need to get Garrisons up quicker, because I'm wasting talent that could be a Governor. Wood is so scarce and precious that I think everyone beelines Forestry as best as the cards will allow.

I've had other cultures up into the 400's and as Furious as -1000. It does have an effect. I've played a bit with Diplomats too, and it seemed like I was getting Events more frequently specific to that culture but I don't know for sure. I have not gotten to mess with Spymasters yet.

There is so much I love about Old World. Ok, the game where Prince Puppy Strangler turned into an amazing king was a bit disturbing but otherwise....

Yeah, I really messed up by not investing in forums early. The fact that they don't break even for twenty turns makes them seem like a lousy proposition in the early game. But now I'm in negative civics per turn why, and I don't even what it is that requires upkeep....My laws, I guess?

Finding places to put characters where they can earn XP seems important, even if I don't know exactly what the XP does for them.

As for attitude modifiers, yeah, the numbers seem to matter. I've been giving away luxuries because as far as I can tell there's no way to actually sell them on the market. Not that I ever seem to need the gold.

And yes, god, yes. Forestry is a priority. I do hope they do away with that bit where you only have one chance at grabbing the "freebie" tech card. I don't see the point in sucking away that choice, essentially since those freebies pad out what is currently a smallish tech tree.

Anyone got any opinion on the defensive projects like Walls and Moats? Are city defenses worth anything in the face of the overwhelming onslaught?

I'm having lots of fun, just don't know how long it will last. Really depends on if there is ever any transparency into what the AI is up to, and the hope that it's up to more than simply pumping out INSANE numbers of military units. I like that there's plenty of stuff going on inside the player's empire. But is that true for the computer players as well?

 

[steveg700]

Ok I see your point. I see that your issue is with truly random events, and i concede that's what these are. But I enjoy them -- with the exception of anticipating a Teleportation Invasion -- and i recognize others don't. And i haven't had any of my well-laid plans suddenly go to pot because of a random event, whereas it seems to have happened for you-- though having said that, if you are min-maxer, then I can see how the current random events are frustrating. I am not a min-maxer and i enjoy roleplaying b/c i think it's fun. So selfishly i hope they keep it in. Although, even then, I started a new game where I am building a TON more military units (and now i see what the food is for!).

Well, I enjoy the events, I just prefer them to be the consequences of something that has happened in the game if they affect the game dramatically.

I watched the Explorminate videos for this and saw his entire dynasty die off, and then in my first two games the same thing happened me. That has not recurred, but suffice to say, there needs to be risk-reward elements where you shelter some characters while exposing others to threats.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Chess is a game of strategy, because it's all about predicting all possible moves given that there is no hidden information. Not for nothing, but that's pretty well-established over centuries of people spending their lives fixated on it. When you hear people talking about planning ten moves ahead of someone, this is the game they're referencing. Chess is not the game to try to redefine.

I'm not redefining chess. I'm just saying there's more strategy in games where you have to plan for a wide range of possible outcomes than in games where you can plan 10 moves ahead. It's the difference between considering one sequence and considering an entire probability distribution of possibilities.

Eisenhower's planning for D-Day required a lot more strategic analysis because there were so many possibilities to consider. Including some outside his control, like the weather.

Again, I can't say yet if there's too much randomness in this game. Obviously that's possible. But it's good to have quite a bit.

 

[riddleofsteel]

Sabium the Cunning died during a swim in the river at age one.

WHERE ARE THE ADULTS?!?!?!

Right. Apparently ancient royal kids didn't even have bodyguards to stop them from getting stabbed, drowned, or from falling out of trees

 

[Casualty of war]

Alright, fired up another game as Persia, The Noble difficulty and randomly got a Disjunction map. Whoa. So Rome, myself and only generic redshirt Barbs were isolated by water on our scrap of land, Carthage and Babylonia plus Thracians are on another, with Egypt and Scythians on another. There's still a lot of fog on the other landmasses because I still don't know how to embark in this game. There's a 'Transport' option on my Biremes but I haven't figured out how to use it yet.

I had a two-stage war with Rome that ground up so many troops. I fulfilled a Kill 30 Enemies Ambition during the war, so yeah; that's a lot of troops for a 3 city empire. There is still much preposterous maneuvering going on, on both side's parts. But something I either didn't notice before or is new is that Rome beat my Scouts and Builders like they owed them money. They ignored combat troops to go after them. It wasn't easy but it was manageable to distract and delay Rome until they fell. Rome took Pasargadae but their army left, even their garrison troop, when I pressured Ostia so they never actually flipped it.

The AI seems to know the secret to making production powerhouses, so the captured cities quickly became my reinforcement sources. My cap takes 7 turns to make an Archer and Antium only takes 3!?! Okay then.

Sample size of one, incomplete game but it seems like you can get the AI to burn 1-2 turns on noncombatants while you get to focus on the damage dealers. Maybe you do have to have a line of Scouts along contested borders. They will get chewed up in any assault but they will buy you enough time. When the war started I had 3 Scouts, and when it was over I had no Scouts.

I'm having some gratification with a tactic of softening up a contiguous group of enemies then finishing them off with a cavalry unit like a Chariot or a War Elephant. Similar to many games, if a cavalry unit kills its target then can keep going and attack another adjacent one.

Spoiler :

 

[Starwars]

The special abilities of various units are definitely good things to keep in mind when attacking. As you say, cavalry units can get a second attack on adjacent units again if they manage to get a kill. Spearmen attacks also damages the unit in the hex behind the unit you're actively attacking. Macemen hits units in an "arc" around the unit you're attacking.

In my current game, Carthage declared war on me and outnumbered me quite a lot. But Persia, who I was allied with, actually kinda saved my bacon as they moved up a lot of units and duked it out with Carthage right on my borders. And a second city of mine was at risk but it's located in a mountain pass so I'm able to hold the enemy off.

This game is dangerous to start up, the hours just fly by.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Right. Apparently ancient royal kids didn't even have bodyguards to stop them from getting stabbed, drowned, or from falling out of trees

They did but the death rate for all young children from accidents was far higher than in modern times.

 

[steveg700]

I had a two-stage war with Rome that ground up so many troops. I fulfilled a Kill 30 Enemies Ambition during the war, so yeah; that's a lot of troops for a 3 city empire. There is still much preposterous maneuvering going on, on both side's parts. But something I either didn't notice before or is new is that Rome beat my Scouts and Builders like they owed them money. They ignored combat troops to go after them. It wasn't easy but it was manageable to distract and delay Rome until they fell. Rome took Pasargadae but their army left, even their garrison troop, when I pressured Ostia so they never actually flipped it.

Oh yeah, the AI goes after what it seems to think is low-hanging fruit. It will pillage and attack civilians while ignoring the troops killing them. That's gonna get patched, I imagine.

The AI seems to know the secret to making production powerhouses, so the captured cities quickly became my reinforcement sources. My cap takes 7 turns to make an Archer and Antium only takes 3!?! Okay then.

Odd dichotomy. Seems annoying to have to wait 7-10 years to build a military unit, but if it's too quick it leads to spam. Honestly, I think the AI will always be rated "much stronger" because building units gets boring as some point. I feel sated way past the point that the AI does.

Most games try to control unit spam through maintenance costs. But in OW, you just get Tyranny and then each unit becomes a treasury. Twenty gold per unit idling???? What the hell? Forget markets, forget harbors, forget gold mines. I don't always want to be a tyrant, but damn, Constitution just cannot compete. That's a tacit endorsement of the "Roman virus" approach to 4X.

This game is dangerous to start up, the hours just fly by.

Yep, played from 8 last night to 8 this morning. Sick.

Of course, it's the honeymoon phase, so it's not clear if what I'm enjoying is only enjoyable due to novelty, or if it has enduring appeal. Likewise, a lot of my frustration is likely due to the game's learning curve and early state.

Some things I'm disappointed in are that the map is very basic and lacking in diversity. Elephants, camels, horses all boost commands. Luxuries raise culture and usually generate gold. And there's nothing hidden like in Civ VI, so a mediocre settle spot is always going to be a mediocre settle spot. Also, my cities are already starting to get cookie-cutter rather than focused.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I just realized the power of the Babylon "run treasury" which is better than doing the festivals. Yes, I'm slow.

 

[Thrakse]

I was just wondering if having a zone of control radius of 2 tiles instead of 1 wouldn't actually solve a fair bit of problems with the Teleportation attacks? This would mean that the unit has to consume a full order per tile to come close to yours, hence it would slow them down when getting close to the battlefield.

This came to mind as I really like the fact it doesn't take 15-20 turns like in CIV to move one unit from one side of your empire to the other one - the current fast moving system is good there. But the pain is the battlefield surprise attacks. Therefore changing the zone of control might be a quick fix to separate the battlefield from the unit movement?

 

[Abegweit]

Good to know. So, in theory, I should culture-bombing the northwestern portion of this city because there are three citizens clustered there? Thing is, they've been there at it for a while, so it can't really be a culture "bomb" per se.

You have to assign someone to work the tile, a Rancher or whatever.

 

[Thrakse]

You have to assign someone to work the tile, a Rancher or whatever.

Hi,

To expand on this - at the moment you have build an Improvement there. What you need to do is assign a citizen to work this tile and therefore becoming a Specialist (Rancher, Farmer, Miner, Acolyte, Monk,....). Upon becoming Specialist, the culture bomb happen. To do so, ensure you have more than 0 citizens (bottom left of the city screen) and click on the green + sign on the tile you want to assign the specialist to.
Note vs. Civ that the Specialists consume the otherwise idle Citizens and they can't be reallocated (AFAIK).

 

[steveg700]

Yeah, I figured out that borders can expand just by setting up building improvements. I kept wondering why the worker recommendation icons kept appearing where they did. Was the game saying there was some benefit to building them there? Nah, it was just encouraging me to build things on borders.

Really takes some getting used to that there is no single source of production. And another oddity is that building wonders isn't any kind of race. Someone starts to build a wonder, they get dibs.

 

[Stringer1313]

Anyone got any opinion on the defensive projects like Walls and Moats? Are city defenses worth anything in the face of the overwhelming onslaught?

Have city walls ever been worth much in any 4X game? (or maybe i should just compare to Civs). If they have teleported their troops into your territory, city walls don't do much.

It should take more turns to take down a city in general. Maybe city walls can double that. That is one partial solution to the Teleportation Invasion problem - I had a game where 8 enemy units teleported into my city, and I had city walls (b/c i got a random event that gave it to me for free), which may have postponed the inevitable by maybe 1 turn as I raced to get my units to that city (which of course I failed to save).

 

[Stringer1313]

Really takes some getting used to that there is no single source of production. And another oddity is that building wonders isn't any kind of race. Someone starts to build a wonder, they get dibs.

That this is weird but only b/c we're used to civs and other 4Xs that have unique wonders... though I'm starting to not hate this model only b/c it felt more exciting to race to see who could get the enormous amount of resources first, rather than a race to see who could generate more hammers. Though at the same time, it felt extremely cheesy that I was able to immediately claim 3 Wonders in one turn b/c i had a ton of resources.

 

[Deggial]

I agree with stinger: The race still exists and it is very real. Gathering the material is not trivial and other uses for it have to be postponed to reach the target numbers. There is planning involved and opportunity costs.

Personally, I am actually very pleased by OW’s take on wonders. Gone are the frustrating days, when wonders got snapped away one turn before being finished, something that I (and probably not only I) hated in all 6 iterations of ‘Civilization’.
Sure, us Civ players are used to this misery. But this is not, how it necessarily has to be in a 4X game!