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Soren Johnson's Old World

Discussion in 'Old World' started by Casworon, Apr 14, 2020.

  1. Auberon

    Auberon Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2007
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    Location:
    Toulouse
    I have just finished my first game (28 hours, this is loooong), I am exhausted. There are far too many things to do and micromanage for my taste. The workers have too many improvements to build, you have to train your family, your troops, build specialists and units (a lot of), appoint generals and governors, give orders, reply to events... with a growing number of cities.

    I have greatly enjoyed the first half of the game and found it brilliant in many ways. But the more you click "next turn", the more the game adds things to do, then more, then more again and so on...

    The most frustrating thing has been the military part of the game though. The amount of units you need to produce in order to survive is staggering. As it was stated earlier, the blitz attacks of the opponents are also very annoying. The AI spawn units by tens and throw them at your throat tirelessly, even when it is almost dead. It seems to be the only tactic available actually. IMO, attacking units deal too much damage and get away with not enough damage.

    This game is supposed to be about strategy and planning but you never see the ennemy and the battles look like a street brawl.

    I think that there is a great potential in this game but I would appreciate having options or ways to reduce the micromanagement level... and having a lesser amount of units to deal with.
     
  2. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    has anyone made suggestions for changes to the save/load screen yet? I'm assuming that's being worked on.
     
  3. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    Sabium the Cunning died during a swim in the river at age one.

    WHERE ARE THE ADULTS?!?!?!
     
  4. Stringer1313

    Stringer1313 King

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2014
    Messages:
    995
    Ok I see your point. I see that your issue is with truly random events, and i concede that's what these are. But I enjoy them -- with the exception of anticipating a Teleportation Invasion -- and i recognize others don't. And i haven't had any of my well-laid plans suddenly go to pot because of a random event, whereas it seems to have happened for you-- though having said that, if you are min-maxer, then I can see how the current random events are frustrating. I am not a min-maxer and i enjoy roleplaying b/c i think it's fun. So selfishly i hope they keep it in. Although, even then, I started a new game where I am building a TON more military units (and now i see what the food is for!).
     
    steveg700 and SammyKhalifa like this.
  5. tzu

    tzu Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2017
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    33
    Scouts have better vision (see farther) than warriors, that can be used to do reconnaissance during war towards enemy cities and detect earlier moves of their units.

    Dependent on terrain (forest, scrub?) and territory (neutral / other civ) Scouts are invisible to other civs (ie. less need for combat value) -- little eye above them (where warriors have the sword indicating they had already a fight in this turn).
     
  6. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    Chess is a game of strategy, because it's all about predicting all possible moves given that there is no hidden information. Not for nothing, but that's pretty well-established over centuries of people spending their lives fixated on it. When you hear people talking about planning ten moves ahead of someone, this is the game they're referencing. Chess is not the game to try to redefine.

    It's utterly correct, and in a sense you are helping to prove it. What you did not account for is that dice are subject to a law of averages. If you roll two dice, you know seven is the most likely result and two and twelve are the least. Similar to the concept of counting cards.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2020
  7. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    Yeah, I really messed up by not investing in forums early. The fact that they don't break even for twenty turns makes them seem like a lousy proposition in the early game. But now I'm in negative civics per turn why, and I don't even what it is that requires upkeep....My laws, I guess?

    Finding places to put characters where they can earn XP seems important, even if I don't know exactly what the XP does for them.

    As for attitude modifiers, yeah, the numbers seem to matter. I've been giving away luxuries because as far as I can tell there's no way to actually sell them on the market. Not that I ever seem to need the gold.

    And yes, god, yes. Forestry is a priority. I do hope they do away with that bit where you only have one chance at grabbing the "freebie" tech card. I don't see the point in sucking away that choice, essentially since those freebies pad out what is currently a smallish tech tree.

    Anyone got any opinion on the defensive projects like Walls and Moats? Are city defenses worth anything in the face of the overwhelming onslaught?

    I'm having lots of fun, just don't know how long it will last. Really depends on if there is ever any transparency into what the AI is up to, and the hope that it's up to more than simply pumping out INSANE numbers of military units. I like that there's plenty of stuff going on inside the player's empire. But is that true for the computer players as well?
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2020
  8. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    Well, I enjoy the events, I just prefer them to be the consequences of something that has happened in the game if they affect the game dramatically.

    I watched the Explorminate videos for this and saw his entire dynasty die off, and then in my first two games the same thing happened me. That has not recurred, but suffice to say, there needs to be risk-reward elements where you shelter some characters while exposing others to threats.
     
  9. DaviddesJ

    DaviddesJ Deity

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    Burlingame CA
    I'm not redefining chess. I'm just saying there's more strategy in games where you have to plan for a wide range of possible outcomes than in games where you can plan 10 moves ahead. It's the difference between considering one sequence and considering an entire probability distribution of possibilities.

    Eisenhower's planning for D-Day required a lot more strategic analysis because there were so many possibilities to consider. Including some outside his control, like the weather.

    Again, I can't say yet if there's too much randomness in this game. Obviously that's possible. But it's good to have quite a bit.
     
    Roald Amundsen and Elhoim like this.
  10. riddleofsteel

    riddleofsteel Office Linebacker

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    Right. Apparently ancient royal kids didn't even have bodyguards to stop them from getting stabbed, drowned, or from falling out of trees
     
  11. Casualty of war

    Casualty of war Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2018
    Messages:
    333
    Alright, fired up another game as Persia, The Noble difficulty and randomly got a Disjunction map. Whoa. So Rome, myself and only generic redshirt Barbs were isolated by water on our scrap of land, Carthage and Babylonia plus Thracians are on another, with Egypt and Scythians on another. There's still a lot of fog on the other landmasses because I still don't know how to embark in this game. There's a 'Transport' option on my Biremes but I haven't figured out how to use it yet.

    I had a two-stage war with Rome that ground up so many troops. I fulfilled a Kill 30 Enemies Ambition during the war, so yeah; that's a lot of troops for a 3 city empire. There is still much preposterous maneuvering going on, on both side's parts. But something I either didn't notice before or is new is that Rome beat my Scouts and Builders like they owed them money. They ignored combat troops to go after them. It wasn't easy but it was manageable to distract and delay Rome until they fell. Rome took Pasargadae but their army left, even their garrison troop, when I pressured Ostia so they never actually flipped it.

    The AI seems to know the secret to making production powerhouses, so the captured cities quickly became my reinforcement sources. My cap takes 7 turns to make an Archer and Antium only takes 3!?! Okay then.

    Sample size of one, incomplete game but it seems like you can get the AI to burn 1-2 turns on noncombatants while you get to focus on the damage dealers. Maybe you do have to have a line of Scouts along contested borders. They will get chewed up in any assault but they will buy you enough time. When the war started I had 3 Scouts, and when it was over I had no Scouts.

    I'm having some gratification with a tactic of softening up a contiguous group of enemies then finishing them off with a cavalry unit like a Chariot or a War Elephant. Similar to many games, if a cavalry unit kills its target then can keep going and attack another adjacent one.

    Spoiler :
    upload_2020-5-16_16-27-46.png
     
  12. Starwars

    Starwars Prince

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    Oct 11, 2017
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    The special abilities of various units are definitely good things to keep in mind when attacking. As you say, cavalry units can get a second attack on adjacent units again if they manage to get a kill. Spearmen attacks also damages the unit in the hex behind the unit you're actively attacking. Macemen hits units in an "arc" around the unit you're attacking.

    In my current game, Carthage declared war on me and outnumbered me quite a lot. But Persia, who I was allied with, actually kinda saved my bacon as they moved up a lot of units and duked it out with Carthage right on my borders. And a second city of mine was at risk but it's located in a mountain pass so I'm able to hold the enemy off.

    This game is dangerous to start up, the hours just fly by.
     
  13. DaviddesJ

    DaviddesJ Deity

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    They did but the death rate for all young children from accidents was far higher than in modern times.
     
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  14. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    Oh yeah, the AI goes after what it seems to think is low-hanging fruit. It will pillage and attack civilians while ignoring the troops killing them. That's gonna get patched, I imagine.

    Odd dichotomy. Seems annoying to have to wait 7-10 years to build a military unit, but if it's too quick it leads to spam. Honestly, I think the AI will always be rated "much stronger" because building units gets boring as some point. I feel sated way past the point that the AI does.

    Most games try to control unit spam through maintenance costs. But in OW, you just get Tyranny and then each unit becomes a treasury. Twenty gold per unit idling???? What the hell? Forget markets, forget harbors, forget gold mines. I don't always want to be a tyrant, but damn, Constitution just cannot compete. That's a tacit endorsement of the "Roman virus" approach to 4X.

    Yep, played from 8 last night to 8 this morning. Sick.

    Of course, it's the honeymoon phase, so it's not clear if what I'm enjoying is only enjoyable due to novelty, or if it has enduring appeal. Likewise, a lot of my frustration is likely due to the game's learning curve and early state.

    Some things I'm disappointed in are that the map is very basic and lacking in diversity. Elephants, camels, horses all boost commands. Luxuries raise culture and usually generate gold. And there's nothing hidden like in Civ VI, so a mediocre settle spot is always going to be a mediocre settle spot. Also, my cities are already starting to get cookie-cutter rather than focused.
     
  15. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    I just realized the power of the Babylon "run treasury" which is better than doing the festivals. Yes, I'm slow.
     
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  16. Thrakse

    Thrakse Chieftain

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    I was just wondering if having a zone of control radius of 2 tiles instead of 1 wouldn't actually solve a fair bit of problems with the Teleportation attacks? This would mean that the unit has to consume a full order per tile to come close to yours, hence it would slow them down when getting close to the battlefield.

    This came to mind as I really like the fact it doesn't take 15-20 turns like in CIV to move one unit from one side of your empire to the other one - the current fast moving system is good there. But the pain is the battlefield surprise attacks. Therefore changing the zone of control might be a quick fix to separate the battlefield from the unit movement?
     
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  17. Abegweit

    Abegweit Anarchist trader

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    You have to assign someone to work the tile, a Rancher or whatever.
     
  18. Thrakse

    Thrakse Chieftain

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    Hi,

    To expand on this - at the moment you have build an Improvement there. What you need to do is assign a citizen to work this tile and therefore becoming a Specialist (Rancher, Farmer, Miner, Acolyte, Monk,....). Upon becoming Specialist, the culture bomb happen. To do so, ensure you have more than 0 citizens (bottom left of the city screen) and click on the green + sign on the tile you want to assign the specialist to.
    Note vs. Civ that the Specialists consume the otherwise idle Citizens and they can't be reallocated (AFAIK).
     
  19. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    Yeah, I figured out that borders can expand just by setting up building improvements. I kept wondering why the worker recommendation icons kept appearing where they did. Was the game saying there was some benefit to building them there? Nah, it was just encouraging me to build things on borders.

    Really takes some getting used to that there is no single source of production. And another oddity is that building wonders isn't any kind of race. Someone starts to build a wonder, they get dibs.
     
  20. Stringer1313

    Stringer1313 King

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    Have city walls ever been worth much in any 4X game? :) (or maybe i should just compare to Civs). If they have teleported their troops into your territory, city walls don't do much.

    It should take more turns to take down a city in general. Maybe city walls can double that. That is one partial solution to the Teleportation Invasion problem - I had a game where 8 enemy units teleported into my city, and I had city walls (b/c i got a random event that gave it to me for free), which may have postponed the inevitable by maybe 1 turn as I raced to get my units to that city (which of course I failed to save).
     

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