Soren - new tech trading system has ruined the game!

[JeffNebraska]

I've been reading and talking about this a lot on Apolyton, which I visit less often, so I thought I'd just say it here to be sure if anyone at Firaxis is looking, they'll notice it.

In my opinion, this is the only intolerable flaw in the game at this point. Please, please, please give us a way to revert to the 1.16 system without losing the other enhancements of 1.17! A way to get halfway back would be even better, but ANY change will help. You couldn't make the science race any lamer than it is now, no matter what you did.

 

[JeffNebraska]

Anyone who agrees with me, please post a one-word reply of "agreed" or "right on" or "sing it sister," or whatever. It will be well worth your five second investment if they see enough us feeling this way.

 

[-proletarian-]

Firaxis, don't listen to this man, he is delusional! Keep it the way it is.......

What exactly IS the issue you speak of regarding tech rate?

 

[joycem10]

agreed, im starting to think that it would be better to trade for all techs rather than research myself, especially early.

 

[NY Hoya]

agreed, Jeff. The rate of tech progress is now ridiculously fast. I am able to get a tech lead now with the patch and keep it on regent level, but the only way to build a substantial lead is to get ALL of the science related wonders and to embroil the entire world in war throughout the industrial and modern eras.

Before the late industrial age, there seems to be no point in devoting $ to research. I think one fix would be to lower the cost decrease for techs that occurs when the tech is known by a few civs. Also, there should be some techs, i.e., gunpowder, military tradition, nationalism that never decrease in cost to research.

This is very frustrating, because the patch fixed so many things that I can't go back tok 1.16. Still, the game is not as fun as it should be and can be.

 

[Druid]

Agreed.

I wont play 17f with the trading system now in use.

All the AI civs are now identical -- no difference between them at all. They all have the same tech levels . None will trade with a human on reasonable terms.

PFUI!

 

[sealman]

They have never traded with me on a reasonable level.

 

[Alexnm]

The main problem, as I see it, is that to research technologies by yourself has become useless, because of the enormous tech lead the AI gets.

Also, the rate of tech progress now makes some units completely obsolete before I can even build them. When you manage to create a large attack force, you suddenly find out that it is useless against your enemy's more advanced ones.

Still, I don't think it is too bad. Time now passes quickly, I can get to the modern age before the game actually ends, which is something I barely could do before (on the lower levels).

Since we can fix this in the editor, I don't see why so many people are complaining.

 

[Bamspeedy]

The main problem, as I see it, is that to research technologies by yourself has become useless, because of the enormous tech lead the AI gets.

Probably agree on this on the harder levels, but not on Chieftain-Regent levels.

agreed, Jeff. The rate of tech progress is now ridiculously fast. I am able to get a tech lead now with the patch and keep it on regent level, but the only way to build a substantial lead is to get ALL of the science related wonders and to embroil the entire world in war throughout the industrial and modern eras.

In my current game on Regent, I haven't had to build any of the scientific wonders (although I did build other wonders). I agree having a world war will slow down all the other civs. I got a quick tech lead by being expansionist (with no nearby expansionist civs ) and never lost the tech lead. The greeks (on another continent) are only caught up because I voluntarily sold them techs http://www.msnusers.com/BamSpeedysCiv3Screenshots/tradediplomacyetc.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=32

Still, I don't think it is too bad. Time now passes quickly, I can get to the modern age before the game actually ends, which is something I barely could do before (on the lower levels

Yes, there were some complaints from some people who said it was impossible to get to the modern age before 2050 A.D. on Chieftain level. Unfortunately, in many people's games now (on levels above Chieftain (post patch) the modern era is around 1500 A.D. (or earlier). So it looks like it went from one extreme to the other.

All the AI civs are now identical -- no difference between them at all. They all have the same tech levels . None will trade with a human on reasonable terms.

Mostly true. In my game there were a couple of civs that were alone on islands that are still technologically backwards (even in the late industrial age). After they had traded away their maps and all their gold, they had nothing left to bargain with, so they stayed 15 techs behind.

 

[Zouave]

Originally posted by sealman
They have never traded with me on a reasonable level.

I agree. There is much less trading now owing to the outrageous demands of other civs.

A typical request from a Polite civ is: World Map, 50 gold, and Literature. . . in exchange for just their World Map!!

Yea, surrre.

If I want a resoucre it is often at a 3:1 ratio. No sale there, either.
My gems, furs, and silk for their incense. I don't think so.

 

[Umask077]

Last game I hit the industrial age in 1200 AD.

As for trading on a reasonable level the programmers who wrote the algorithm for trade took some shortcuts.

It thinks X% of your money is a fair trade, Lets say 15%. If you have 100 in the bank thats 15 gold. The ai checks on the bottom for an acceptable minimum. What it doesnt do is check for an acceptable max. So if your sitting pretty with 50K in the bank (Ive done it on several games) and it comes to you asking for 15% it doesnt see it as unreasonable. Its still only 15%. It doesnt put a value on quanity. Just precentage which is a flaw I hope they fix but im not banking on it. The goal is to get a tech lead, keep it as long and possible and kill anyone who gets ahead. Last game I had to send 8 transports full of tanks over to the americans and raze all there citys with 12 or more population to keep them from cheating there way to the space race. I had a a huge empired. 40sih citys all with all building in them. All the science wonders and still they popped ahead of me 3 techs in one turn that no one else had.

Once I leveled there biggest cities however this slowed down.

 

[linjon]

huge map, me aztecs vs. 7 others , monarch level. i was doing a massive build out, knocking out settlers to beat the band, therefore never had any commerce for tech and was 3 or 4 behind everybody. i was given 2 or 3 , i think construction, and others for next to nothing, ie, map, $30, etc. the others do seem to be progressing rapidly though.

 

[brody]

I LIKE the tech trading, but I would prefer if some Civs were eager to trade while others were eager to keep their knowledge to themselves. Or maybe if they wouldn't trade a tech until it was known by another Civ OR they had enough of a tech lead that they felt it would be worthwhile to trade without losing their lead.

As for AIs being the same, I disagree. I often find that France has the most modern techs, then comes the Zulus (usually 1 behind france), then the Chinese (1 or 2 behind France), and then the other 2 surviving AIs are 4-5 behind the French. I rarely see France giving away their techs right away. They seem to wait a couple turns or something... make this wait a little longer and I'd be happy.

 

[loki]

Originally posted by Bamspeedy

Yes, there were some complaints from some people who said it was impossible to get to the modern age before 2050 A.D. on Chieftain level. Unfortunately, in many people's games now (on levels above Chieftain (post patch) the modern era is around 1500 A.D. (or earlier). So it looks like it went from one extreme to the other.

Weird. As far as I remember my chieftain games, I always hit the modern era by 1800. Actually, it was easier to reach modern age early on chieftain, mostly because the AI would never attack me. Given the very slow rate they expand, I was also able to get most of the luxuries which kept my science rate to 80-90%
So, actually playing a tech lead on chieftain was easier than on any other levels. But, you had to do it alone.

loki

 

[Rushton]

Agreed Jeff! :aargh3:

The whole balance of the game has shifted due to this change in the Science/Tech part. I´m sure this wasn´t supposed to be like this and I for one have gone back to the first patch as I liked the science wheeling and dealing. It made the game easier but more exciting and I can always go up a difficulty level if it is too easy!

Shame really but there you are, they changed the whole game

Paul

 

[Civgamer]

I just played 1 game with the new patch (before I got the 'CIVILIASTION.exe error! ) and was astonished to see (using 'multi') how technologically advanced the others all were.

So: Fix the crashes and take this new trading algorithm back. And You will have a superb game!!

At the moment I completely gave up playing. There is no reason in seraching and the crashes (I never got before the 1.17f patch) make it impossible for me to play.

 

[loki]

Most importantly, it ruined the game for us, lowly mortals, who play inferior levels.

Back to 1.16

loki

 

[Zachriel]

On higher levels your money is discounted*. That just means you have to spend more for the same tech. Of course, it will be hard to stay ahead in techs. That is what is means to be on a higher level!

On lower levels you should be able to keep up with the AI, or even pull ahead.


* Think of it like you are spending pesos, while everyone else is spending dollars, pounds, marks, etc. They don't really want your devalued pesos, so you need more of them.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Agreed!

Maybe some tweaking might fix it, but the way known techs devaluate just takes a whole dimension out of the game, so maybe tweaking the old 1.16 system might be easier (block excessive tech broker).

 

[NY Hoya]

i think some of the people who are saying that everything is fine are missing the point. The point is not that the new tech trading system makes the game too challenging. I continue to rout the AI on regent level all the time. The problem has to do with immersion and fun in the game. To me, it just isn't fun to play a me vs. the world game. I liked the idea of 8 or 9 different civs vying to win the game. As it is now, it's as if there are 8 civs trying to prevent me from winning.

The only distinctions betweeen civs, if any, are due to the fact that there may be one or two that I picked on and got the the other AIs to pick on. Otherwise, all of the other civs in my game are within a tech of each other, usually a few behind me. This just isn't a really fun game the way it is post patch...