Is the concept balanced?


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Hippie_Peace_man

Chieftain
Joined
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Messages
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After a recent unfinished Denmark game, I was inspired to create a puppet civ (like Venice) that could settle cities. I've never made a mod before, so I figured before attempting to create the civ, I would post my idea here and listen for feedback on whether this is OP or UP:

Soviet Union (Stalin)
UA: Iron Fist
Puppet cities gain happiness like normal cities and gain +15% production towards buildings.
Courthouses are instantly built in puppet cities when annexed with no buildings in queue.

UB: Commissiarat (replaces Chancery):
2 maintenance (down from 3).
+1 Gold and +2 Production per puppeted CS.
Grants Promotion, "Red Terror," for Military Units in the city in which it is built.

Red Terror promotion:

May attack CS units twice, first attack costs no movement points.
Ignores CS ZoC.

UU: IS-2 (replaces Tank):
Cheaper production cost.
May attack units of a civilization with no ideology or differing ideology twice, first attack costs no movement points.
 
Red Terror was used first against the White Army (a bunch of mercenaries from nearly all the world), then later used by Stalin against Marxists in order to have total control of the political party.

It's your decision to choose which historical period do you want to represent: either the red terror against the white (Lenin), or the red terror against Bolshevism in general (Stalin). The red terror against the white army was far more ideological, while the red terror in Stalin period... well, he was a very good guy for the whites helping republicans in Spain and abandoning the communists in Greek, red terror in this period was only for consolidation of power.
 
Red Terror was used first against the White Army (a bunch of mercenaries from nearly all the world), then later used by Stalin against Marxists in order to have total control of the political party.

It's your decision to choose which historical period do you want to represent: either the red terror against the white (Lenin), or the red terror against Bolshevism in general (Stalin). The red terror against the white army was far more ideological, while the red terror in Stalin period... well, he was a very good guy for the whites helping republicans in Spain and abandoning the communists in Greek, red terror in this period was only for consolidation of power.
Are you aware of a term for Soviet bullying of smaller countries (e.g. Baltic states, Poland, Afghanistan, they tried against Finland) mostly during WW2?
 
Before 1928, Red Terror was a term used in the Civil War between Red Army and the White Army. Since the White Army was far more armed, the Red Army was forced to show no mercy.

After 1928, Red Terror was a term used to make reference of the bullying of smaller countries and surpress of political dissent in the population.
 
I think there is a lot of potential, but I clearly don't like this civ in its current state.

You essentially play with no bonuses for a good part of the game. Your UB is bad, as you will use only half of its bonus (either the bonus on puppet CS, either the bonus on ally/friends CS), since declaring war twice to CS give you definitive diplomatic penalty with them. Moreover, you will not really use the diplomatic units with this civ... Your tanks are kind of OP in the right situation, but they are quite late so they're just useful to confirm a victory.
Moreover, this civ is crap as an AI, as even if you feel threatened by them, you can just take the same ideology and they lose their OP promotion against you.

I don't see a lot of cases where I wouldn't prefer the Mongols over this civ.

Suggestions (feel free to ignore some or all of them):
UB change: Also count CS that are afraid. Give a unique promotion to envoy/.../diplomats so that they are useful even after having captured all the CS. [not sure what promotion, though]
UA replacement: All improvements have -1 food and +1 prod. Puppet cities gain happiness like normal cities. Free Courthouse when capturing cities (puppet or annexing).
UU change: I would add a bonus against cities.
 
recent changes have perhaps left a UA related to specialist happiness open - or A unique chancery granting some free specialists could fit the flavour.

Either way - looking to welcome Joe into the game (he shows up in the intro video as I type this)...please consider adding community events and/or 3&4 UC compatability to the concept...
 
I think there is a lot of potential, but I clearly don't like this civ in its current state.

You essentially play with no bonuses for a good part of the game. Your UB is bad, as you will use only half of its bonus (either the bonus on puppet CS, either the bonus on ally/friends CS), since declaring war twice to CS give you definitive diplomatic penalty with them. Moreover, you will not really use the diplomatic units with this civ... Your tanks are kind of OP in the right situation, but they are quite late so they're just useful to confirm a victory.
Moreover, this civ is crap as an AI, as even if you feel threatened by them, you can just take the same ideology and they lose their OP promotion against you.

I don't see a lot of cases where I wouldn't prefer the Mongols over this civ.

Suggestions (feel free to ignore some or all of them):
UB change: Also count CS that are afraid. Give a unique promotion to envoy/.../diplomats so that they are useful even after having captured all the CS. [not sure what promotion, though]
UA replacement: All improvements have -1 food and +1 prod. Puppet cities gain happiness like normal cities. Free Courthouse when capturing cities (puppet or annexing).
UU change: I would add a bonus against cities.
Alright, I'm proud to see that people at least like the concept of the concept. I've been thinking a while about changing the UU and although I don't have the specific stats down, I have an idea to make it good.

UU: IS-2 (replaces Tank):
-3% production cost.
Ranged Combat Strength: I don't know what would be balanced, please suggest.
Range: 1
Combat Strength: This might need to be lowered from default a slight bit.
Starts with promotion, "Overwhelming Numbers"

Overwhelming Numbers promotion:

Subsequent attacks by an IS-2 against a single unit during a turn are ranged.
May attack units of a civilization with no ideology or differing ideology twice, first attack costs no movement.

Promotion is lost on upgrade.

The first part of the promotion doesn't necessarily have to be by the the same unit, so if you just have a bunch of IS-2s on a frontline, even on somebody with the same ideology, you can absolutely wreck the numbers with very little damage against the tanks. At least that's what I think would happen. My justification for this is that the IS-2s overwhelmed enemy forces so much that they could not defend against their attacks.

UB: Commissiarat (replaces Chancery):
2 maintenance (down from 3).
+1 Gold and +2 Production per puppeted or afraid CS.
Grants a free courthouse if built in a puppet.
Grants Promotion, "Red Terror," for Military Units in the city in which it is built.

Red Terror promotion:

May attack CS units twice, first attack costs no movement points.
Ignores CS ZoC.

This obviously requires a change to the UA (since the UB now does what part of the UA did). I'm not a fan of your UA suggestion because I think this would kill early game growth and likely necessitate micro-ing tiles (and one of the reasons I wanted a puppet civ that could settle cities is because I prefer to puppet, but that's a nightmare on happiness).

I will replace the "Courthouses are instantly built in puppet cities when annexed with no buildings in queue" with something else since the UB already has that down. I should probably borrow from early Russian history (before the revolution). Does anybody have any idea of a UA addition that will not encroach on any other civs UA? Maybe conquering a city starts a half-golden age (6 turns instead of 12). I don't like that since it feels like a better French/Aztec UA. Maybe the Red Terror promotion grants +1 movement if on a different continent to the city it was built in (to represent the Soviet Union being a world superpower getting involved in affairs all around the globe)?

EDIT: I just want to be clear that I liked your suggestion of the UB granting an additional promotion to diplomatic units so that they are still useful in a game without CS. I just don't have an idea for a promotion that is both interesting and not overpowered. Maybe diplomatic units grant a buff to nearby military units, like a great general, based on the amount of puppet CSs.
 
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I just had a couple thoughts on how to make the civ good in the early game. How about golden age points for settling or conquering a city? And I think the UB should be available slightly earlier; at Philosophy, Engineering, or Metal Casting instead of Education. I think this appropriately balances early game and late game, but I'd love to hear what you guys think.
 
Here is draft #4. I also forgot to mention that a heavy amount of inspiration and design came from JFD's Soviet Union. Would it be rude I used his artwork and leader screen, even if I gave credit?:

Soviet Union (Stalin)
UA: Terror State
Puppet cities gain happiness like normal cities and gain +15% production towards buildings.
+50 GAP when founding or conquering cities for the first time, scaling with Era.
Earn Influence per turn with City-States from which you could demand tribute.

UB: Commissiarat (replaces Chancery):
Is available earlier than the Chancery which it replaces, arriving at Philosophy rather than Education.
2 maintenance (down from 3).
+1 Gold and +2 Production per puppeted or afraid CS.
+10% Production towards Military Units.
Grants a free courthouse if built in a puppet.
Courthouses and Military Training buildings in this city gain +1 Culture and +1 GAP.
Grants Promotion, "Red Terror," for Military Units in the city in which it is built.

Red Terror promotion:

May attack CS units twice, first attack costs no movement points.
Ignores CS ZoC.
+1 Movement on continents other than the city it was produced in.

UU: IS-2 (replaces Tank):
-3% production cost.
Never becomes obsolete, whereas the standard Tank obsoletes at Lasers.
Starts with promotions, "Overwhelming Numbers", "Overrun", and "Heavy Charge".

Overwhelming Numbers promotion:

May attack units of a civilization with no ideology or differing ideology twice, first attack costs no movement points.
The loss of this unit will not contribute to war weariness (might be dropped in favor of puppets not producing war weariness).


I think the UA and the UB are now at a point where we can start cutting out the overpowered and overcomplication.
 
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Here is draft #4. I also forgot to mention that a heavy amount of inspiration and design came from JFD's Soviet Union. Would it be rude I used his artwork and leader screen, even if I gave credit?:
I think you should ask him trough private messages.
Soviet Union (Stalin)
UA: Terror State
Puppet cities gain happiness like normal cities and gain +15% production towards buildings.
+50 GAP when founding or conquering cities for the first time, scaling with Era.
Earn Influence per turn with City-States from which you could demand tribute.

UB: Commissiarat (replaces Chancery):
Is available earlier than the Chancery which it replaces, arriving at Philosophy rather than Education.
2 maintenance (down from 3).
+1 Gold and +2 Production per puppeted or afraid CS.
+10% Production towards Military Units.
Grants a free courthouse if built in a puppet.
Courthouses and Military Training buildings in this city gain +1 Culture and +1 GAP.
Grants Promotion, "Red Terror," for Military Units in the city in which it is built.

Red Terror promotion:

May attack CS units twice, first attack costs no movement points.
Ignores CS ZoC.
+1 Movement on continents other than the city it was produced in.

UU: IS-2 (replaces Tank):
-3% production cost.
Never becomes obsolete, whereas the standard Tank obsoletes at Lasers.
Starts with promotions, "Overwhelming Numbers", "Overrun", and "Heavy Charge".

Overwhelming Numbers promotion:

May attack units of a civilization with no ideology or differing ideology twice, first attack costs no movement points.
The loss of this unit will not contribute to war weariness (might be dropped in favor of puppets not producing war weariness).


I think the UA and the UB are now at a point where we can start cutting out the overpowered and overcomplication.
Looks already far more interesting!
 
This is my final draft. Please critique:

Soviet Union (Stalin)
UA: Terror State
Puppet cities gain happiness like normal cities and gain +15% production towards buildings.
+50 GAP when founding or conquering cities for the first time, scaling with Era.
Earn Influence per turn with City-States from which you could demand tribute.

UB: Commissiarat (replaces Chancery):
Is available earlier than the Chancery which it replaces, arriving at Philosophy rather than Education.
2 maintenance (down from 3).
+1 Gold and +2 Production per puppeted or afraid CS.
+10% Production towards Military Units.
Grants a free courthouse if built in a puppet.
Courthouses, Military Training, and Counter-Espionage buildings in this city gain +1 GAP and +1 GPT.
Grants Promotion, "Red Terror," for Military Units in the city in which it is built.

Red Terror promotion:

May attack CS units twice, first attack costs no movement points.
Ignores CS ZoC.
+1 Movement on continents other than the city it was produced in.

UU: IS-2 (replaces Tank):
Has more Combat Strength (75 vs. 70)
Starts with the "Overwhelming Numbers", "Formation I", and "Heavy Charge" promotions.
-3% production cost.
Never becomes obsolete, whereas the standard Tank obsoletes at Lasers.

Overwhelming Numbers promotion:

May attack units of a civilization with no ideology or differing ideology twice, first attack costs no movement points.
The loss of this unit will not contribute to war weariness.


I preferred the UA name, "Iron Fist," but I changed it because it shared a name with an unrelated ideological tenant. Should I change it back or is the UA name good as it is?
 
I honestly just prefer JFD’s base Stalin to this. All that would be needed would be to change the commissariat to chancery from constabulary, and extend the UA’s effect to vassalized civs as well.

Maybe this for commissariat?
+10%:c5production: towards units, up to 30% for every trade route to a CS
+5%:c5production: towards buildings, up to 15%, for every internal trade route
+10%:c5production: towards projects and processes, up to 30%, for every trade route to a vassal
 
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I'll help if you make it historically accurate.

FACTS
Stalin's Russia had the highest increase of life expectancy and biggest decrease in infant mortality in recorded history as well as fastest industrialization... Only beat by never Hoxha's Albania... (Went from one university to literally 10 in 30 years and from less than 100 doctors countrywide to more than one per hundred citizens along with up to literally a higher literacy rate than most European countries)
 
I'll help if you make it historically accurate.

FACTS
Stalin's Russia had the highest increase of life expectancy and biggest decrease in infant mortality in recorded history as well as fastest industrialization... Only beat by never Hoxha's Albania... (Went from one university to literally 10 in 30 years and from less than 100 doctors countrywide to more than one per hundred citizens along with up to literally a higher literacy rate than most European countries)
“Historically accurate.” Do they not teach you about the famines caused by Stalin’s policies of Industrialization at commie school? Or about the gulags? Or about the secret police? Or about Stalin’s arrogance that Hitler would never invade the Soviet Union? fudge off, commie.
 
I actually know more about this than you my family is from there I studied this in college for global studies with a focus on the cold war I have family who are Kyrgz and we came here after converting in the Russian pograms.

You sir are the one who is factually ignorant.
I have studied this stuff I even learned Russian to read the Soviet archives. (My family is originally Polish). Ignorance ain't cool... The gulags most people in there for murder rape theft etc...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_in_Russia

Read if you can't I will willingly offer you auditory readings like I help others with dyslexia fill out job applications. These numbers cited on Wikipedia are low balling things immensely the actual numbers the life expectancy had climbed by Stalin's death to equal that of France.

Even in highschool I was taking college coursework in both European and World History and in college I also continued taking coursework on the Russian Revolution.

I also continued studying after leaving college. Gavaryu Po ruskie? Ya gavaryu mninoga menya ruskie Ochin ploha Ya pishu Ruskie yazik ya oochoos angleski

What did you study in school...? College what did you study...?

The Soviet records are available in English too!

Maybe I should just make an America mod where literally every five turns you lose a citizen to lynching or uncounted minority deaths... I can read... I do read... 70% of Russians and the people that lived through it most of them actually agree with me.

I don't say the great purges didn't exist 700,000 died in the great purges for example however the Soviet Union did in fact experience a population boom as literally for the first time in history women gave birth in hospitals had free healthcare pediatrics is actually something that originated in the Soviet Union during the Stalin Era...
 
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I actually know more about this than you my family is from there I studied this in college for global studies with a focus on the cold war I have family who are Kyrgz and we came here after converting in the Russian pograms.

You sir are the one who is factually ignorant.
I have studied this stuff I even learned Russian to read the Soviet archives. (My family is originally Polish). Ignorance ain't cool... The gulags most people in there for murder rape theft etc...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_in_Russia

Read if you can't I will willingly offer you auditory readings like I help others with dyslexia fill out job applications. These numbers cited on Wikipedia are low balling things immensely the actual numbers the life expectancy had climbed by Stalin's death to equal that of France.

Even in highschool I was taking college coursework in both European and World History and in college I also continued taking coursework on the Russian Revolution.

I also continued studying after leaving college. Gavaryu Po ruskie?
I am extremely skeptical of any information collected under the Soviet Union, just as I do not believe the North Korea has 100% approval rating for Kim Jong Un. But let's go with the assumption that what you said is true. So what? Life expectancy grew under the Soviet Union? At that exact same time, life expectancy grew by the same amount in the rest of the world. It is not something unique to the Soviet Union. In the United States, life expectancy in 1913 was about 50 and in 1926, life expectancy was about 65 (mind you, I'm reading this off of a low-quality graph, since I can't find a lot of information on the exact dates).
The reason that life expectancy dropped for a short period of time after the collapse of the Soviet Union is that people experimented with their newfound freedom and died due to things like drug ODs. And whose fault is that for oppressing them?
 
Actually it grew MUCH more rapidly than the rest of the world. Hospitals don't spontaneously spring out of thin air. Nor do factories for that matter. If humanitarian gains were spontaneous then subsaharan Africa would be on par with Denmark.

In the US in the 70s people were without running water or electricity in Appalachia.

Largely such humanitarian gains were largely due to government funded advancements.

Soviet archives are released these aren't externally written propaganda like bastard North Korea these are actual internal documents.

The United States was MANY TIMES more industrialized than the Soviet Union was by 1926.

Even the soviet housing crisis of the 60s to deal with the population boom and the large-scale adoption of French style housing units called Krupstkayas.

Now why did it drop... Well numerous factors from the 1970 drop in oil prices caused by Saudi Arabia to the failure of middle management in the USSR and the favoritism towards ethnic Russians after the Stalin Era. In addition widespread corruption that was no longer being held in check AND the lack of 1 major technology... THE FAX MACHINE...
This led to the trend towards miniaturization which largely was the only reason for the successes associated with capitalism in America.

Notice how Cuba was actually determined by the WHO as the safest place on earth to be a kid... The US is the largest arms dealer on earth while Cuba they send doctors around the world paid for by the Cuban government to provide FREE healthcare just last month over 700,000 people free of charge had eyesight restored by Cuban doctors operating in Bolivia from a SINGLE clinic. They even developed vaccination treatments for lung cancer.

In addition the privatization of healthcare post Soviet Union led to a decrease in both availability and quality. Even now 70% of Russians agree life was better then.

This is not unique to the USSR alone Soviet nostalgia is actually pretty widespread. Economic prosperity actually factually does not follow a trickle down economic approach. It actually follows the approach that more resembles Keynesian as well as command structures. Actual command economies do actually work.

Compare and contrast Cuba to North Korea.

Korea followed a policy of Songhon or military first instead of allocating oil resources to domestic facilities such as making sure everyone was fed ie fertilizer North Korea focused on military security. Cuba cut their military down due to the lack of oil availability a governments responsibility is to its people first and foremost Both Korea focused on something else entirely protecting itself while at in a state of war since 1950s technically the Korean war ain't over...
 
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Actually it grew MUCH more rapidly than the rest of the world. Hospitals don't spontaneously spring out of thin air. Nor do factories for that matter. If humanitarian gains were spontaneous then subsaharan Africa would be on par with Denmark.

In the US in the 70s people were without running water or electricity in Appalachia.

Largely such humanitarian gains were largely due to government funded advancements.

Soviet archives are released these aren't externally written propaganda like bastard North Korea these are actual internal documents.

The United States was MANY TIMES more industrialized than the Soviet Union was by 1926.

Even the soviet housing crisis of the 60s to deal with the population boom and the large-scale adoption of French style housing units called Krupstkayas.

Now why did it drop... Well numerous factors from the 1970 drop in oil prices caused by Saudi Arabia to the failure of middle management in the USSR and the favoritism towards ethnic Russians after the Stalin Era.

Notice how Cuba was actually determined by the WHO as the safest place on earth to be a kid...
This is gonna be my last reply to your posts. Feel free to respond to this post and "rebut" my points, but don't expect a response in return. I don't want my thread to get locked.
The reason the Soviet Union managed to Industrialize so fast was due to the most heartless policies with the goal of pushing people into collectivized farms. These policies resulted in famines, sometimes on the level of the holocaust. The biggest example being Holodomer.
"In the US in the 70s people were without running water or electricity in Appalachia." I have no idea of which you are referring to, but there are poor people everywhere. Even the Soviet Union had poor people. The only difference was that these poor people became poor because of the Soviet government and died in famines like the Holodomer or died in gulags.
These "humanitarian gains" are not due to government-funded advancements. They are due to the wealth that was confiscated by the government to inefficiently fund these advancements. The government likes to take credit, but all they take is the private property of people. If the Soviets had not confiscated the grain and the private property used to fund and create these hospitals, people would still have eaten and people would still have built hospitals. They did not need the Soviet government to do it for them.
Again, I have no faith or trust in Soviet records and simply you saying "they're trustworthy don't question" doesn't cut it.
The next three lines of your post make no grammatical sense and I do not care to decipher what you mean.
"The WHO recognizes Cuba to be the safest place in the world for a kid" what? Sure, buddy.
 
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