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Spain

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by void_genesis, Jan 2, 2015.

  1. void_genesis

    void_genesis Chieftain

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    I just played the first half of a game as Spain, king, continents, standard size map. I spawned on a long loopy island with only Egypt and luckily a couple of city states, one right near my capital with sri prada. I built up a few archers and warriors and took the city state to get a supertile- it has grew bigger than my capital by turn 120. I then dropped two other decent cities to help push my science and speed up exploring the world. Askia was alone on a nearby big continent, complete with a CS with the great barrier reef. I took them out with archers but it took forever. I just got galleases ready to help when it fell and made two supertiles. One tile of the reef was on coral so it was even more over the top. I have since found a few other CS with natural wonders to capture soon and see how powerful they are. I currently feel like double yields are just about right. I got the pantheon belief for extra culture and faith on natural wonders too, but given how distant CS with natural wonders tend to be, and the religious pressure from all their neighbors, I think this pantheon is actually very underpowered as it is. Maybe make it also give double happiness from discovering natural wonders to augment the exploration theme?

    Haven't gotten to missions and conquistators yet....might be a while before I get back to this game so I can only really comment on the UA.
     
  2. void_genesis

    void_genesis Chieftain

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    One final thought on the spain UA.....would it be possible for it to scale with era? Early NW grabs are lots of fun, but after the midgame it becomes not so worthwhile to grab more distant ones. A strong incentive would be useful- maybe up it to x4 NW tile yields by the final era?
     
  3. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    I think spain do get double happiness from discovering natural wonders, but that might be me getting things confused again.


    Honestly about the UA balance, I used to think it was rather useless, but these days for some reason I seem to get one or 2 natural wonders within my territory every game (not while playing spain) so I'd think the UA probably is rather balanced. Also the changes to make all the useless NWs better really helped spain a lot

    Think I might actually play my next game as Spain and see how it works out.
     
  4. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    I'd say that the rebalanced NWs make Spain an attractive and powerful civ with or without the 'finder's bonus' of Gold. That Gold bonus is largely an early game boost – the real meat of Spain's UA comes from those doubled NWs. Keep in mind that the Conquistador founds cities with a selection of infrastructure (like Pioneers), yet are much cheaper than Pioneers, so they are doubly useful in both passive and martial capacities.
    G
     
  5. void_genesis

    void_genesis Chieftain

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    Just a thought to make the UA continue to make you want to grab distant natural wonders over time- perhaps the bonus could scale based on the number of natural wonders you possess? So the first one gets 150% tile yields, while the fifth one gets you 300% yields on all NW you possess.
     
  6. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    Don't like it, grabbing the natural wonders is its own really. And the only way to balance your idea out is making the first or two first natural wonders you grab so weak that you're pretty much forced to attack people to take NWs


    Also, I checked ingame and you do get double discovery happiness from NWs, which is pretty damn powerful tbh.
     
  7. yrug1o9l

    yrug1o9l Chieftain

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    "Non-majority Religions produce no Pressure and cannot be spread to Spanish cities"
    This part may partly spoil Spanish UB and her Decision(E&D).

    Mission: resistance to conversion +25%
    Decision: All non-majority religions are removed from your empire
     
  8. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    Correct, they both need to be remade I guess.
     
  9. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    The decision isn't up to me (I don't manage E&D), but the Mission is going to get a buff - I'm going to make it spawn a free Missionary of your majority religion. The 'resistance to conversion' is still useful, as you might build a mission without a majority religion, but yes, the Mission needs a buff.

    G
     
  10. Llednar Twem

    Llednar Twem Chieftain

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    That UD still sounds plenty useful to me. Once you capture a bunch of cities with an opposing religion in them, you can use it to instantly wipe it out and never have it come back. I wonder if that works on holy cities...
     
  11. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    Feel like necroing this thread now as I finally got around to testing the remade Spain out.
    Personally I have to say I'm not a big fan, the civ feels completely focused on something that doesn't help you win the game.
    First of all three of their five uniques are completely focused on keeping your own religion in your own cities (something that really isn't hard to do in the first place), which makes them pretty bad at everything else.
    Second even the implementation of the UA feels really weak, I was really looking forward to the "gain a large amount of faith when settling a city", figured I'd do some kind of fast expand plan to secure an early religion. That was until I noticed that "A large amount" was 10 faith which left my strategy rather weak. It actually took me 6 cities to get a pantheon up, and by that time two religions were already founded.

    Anyways this was my experience with Spain, anyone who actually made them work?
     
  12. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    The yield on settle scales, but yeah, I buffed it to 15 per in the latest version. That should get you a panethon on second city, and then the rest is up to you. Keep in mind that city conquest gives you a huge amount of faith (150 x era), so that's where Spain really shines.

    G
     
  13. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    No one with anything to share? Is it that you just haven't played as Spain or that you've just not made them work?

    Both raises equally valid followup questions like:

    "Why haven't you played as them?"
    "Do you find them unappealing or have you just not gotten around to it?"
    "Did you try them out and then quit?"
    "In that case, why did you quit?"
    "Did you play a full game as them and found them equally boring as I did?"
     
  14. Damirith

    Damirith Chieftain

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    I kinda feel the same way about Spain.

    Their UA is great if you dont go piety (so that you dont have to waste the little faith you have to keep your own religion going) and if you are dealing with a number of faith heavy Civs right next door. However if you are playing Spain, you are pretty much going to go piety anyways and if there are not faith based Civs around you, then yeah it's kinda not that great. However, some other Civs have similar UA's where it might not be as good given the map you are on or based on other Civs in the game, so its not so bad that it needs to be changed.
     
  15. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    The UA itself isn't that horrible imho, it feels like a somewhat worse version of the Indian UA with some faith from capturing cities mixed in. My main problem with it is that the faith from capturing cities gets a lot less valuable if it can't help you found a religion, which means you're pretty much forced to either do a rush or just ignore it. Sure you can build a religion around it with holy warriors and so on but 150 or 300 faith per captured city isn't exactly amazing for that either, it's like 2-5 turns of faith/turn with a decent setup. It barely gives you a unit with holy warriors or a building without it.

    However my main problem with Spain is the wasted uniques, the UB pretty much gives you a pretty meh bonus when you finish it and then it does nothing for the rest of the game. That in my opinion is not good enough for a medieval UB.
    Also them having a unique decision that does nothing is painful, I realize that it isn't Gazebo's mod and he doesn't want to change it, but the problem is that it is there.
    You either have to balance around it or you have to adjust it. That has already been done when the Mayan UD was turned obsolete.
     
  16. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    Could you people please do me a favor and try Spain out in your next game, then report your thoughts back here. I'm pretty set in my opinion, but if no one feels the same way I'll naturally back down.


    EDIT: Alternatively if you refuse to play Spain, could you please go ahead and explain why you don't want to play as them. That would probably serve just as well.
     
  17. Opera

    Opera Chieftain

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    I'll give them a try!
     
  18. hokath

    hokath Chieftain

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    I'll play Spain also
     
  19. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    The Mission could be stronger, I'll give you that.

    G
     
  20. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    I manged to work with the Spanish UA to get a rather good start, it took a lot of luck and a really cheesy strategy, but I guess that's how it goes.



    I started off settling a rather good area. Settled on top of a forest so I got my monument done in just a few turns, started building a shrine as soon as that monument finished. The reason why I didn't use my initial forest-production to get the shrine done instead was that I was hoping I'd run into a religious city-state and get my pantheon from that. Also the pantheon I was going for required improvements (goddess of the hunt) so picking that up extra early wouldn't be extremely useful. My capital was located on a hill next to a river, with one forest-citrus tile and 2 forest truffles tiles. One of the truffels was on plain (2 food 2 production) while the other one was on grassland(3 food 1 production). As far as early advantage goes, this start was pretty sweet. Other than that I had a few grassland tiles, one floodplain tile and a lot of forest.
    It is also worth mentioning that I spawned inland meaning one my my unique decisions was permanently locked as it requires your capital to be coastal.

    I started researching trapping hoping I'd get some deer-tiles to get more value out of my chosen pantheon, then I went straight for bronze working to be able to build spearmen and chop forests if needed. After my shrine finished I built a worker to get camps-bonus going.

    Around this time I realized that as good of a startinglocation as I got, I more than balanced it out by getting some of the worst luck I've ever seen with citystates and ancient ruins. I found 6 citystates and not one of them was religious meaning I was stuck waiting for my shrine to finish my pantheon. The 3 ancient ruins I found were equally unimpressive, giving me golden age points 3 times (whooopi dooo).
    I get my first policy around this time and decide to go for Honor to assist with my rush-strategy as well as a way to catch up on expansion later on as I wouldn't be able to build any settlers.

    I use my scouting warrior to take out a barbarian camp for some culture, however since the barbcamp was located in the forest the barbs had mobilty-advantage and managed to run my warrior down after I destroyed their camp.
    I get enough gold from meeting citystates to rushbuy an archer at this point, just as my first worker is finished.
    I queue up two more archers and use the one I rushed to hunt down the barbs that killed my warrior for some extra culture.

    At this point I'm kinda in a state of panic because I still haven't found an AI to rush. I mean I've met AI but I haven't seen their cities yet. As my second archer arrives I start moving both of them north. I've seen a few tiles of tundra to the south of my starting city so it would make more sense to scout north than south. I also know that the civs tend to spawn close to each other on this map-type(oval). When my third archer finishes I start working on a warrior that actually finishes on the same turn as bronzeworking so I can upgrade him and start moving him north aswell. At this point I start building a settler to not fall too far behind.


    Luckily enough to the north, not that far away I meet William, his influence border and his two halfdead warriors fighting some barbs, I use this opportunity to set my archers up and kill both of them, declaring war on William in the process. At this point I'm praying to all known deities that his city actually is in siegeable terrain, but I lucked out there again.

    While my spearman makes his way to Amsterdam I line my archers up against the mountains east of the city and start taking potshots at it, William decided to use his remaining warrior to mount a counterattack sending it to Madrid alone. By the time my Spearman finally make his way to Amsterdam (walking in forest takes forever) my three archers have reduced the defenses of the city low enough that I can grab it, eliminating William and earning me 150 faith.

    The faith from taking Amsterdam along with the faith from working camps back at home brings me up to 250ish faith and on the next turn I spawn a great prophet. At this point I've also earned enough culture to pick another policy, and earned enough hammers in Madrid to finish up the settler I was recruiting there. I used my policy to pick up Expansionism to get another settler and send them to decent locations between Madrid and Amsterdam. I use the great prophet to found the first religion in the game, pick up path of transcendence. A few turns later I jump into classical era, the Path of transcendence bonus gives me another great prophet and I use it to enhance my religion.

    Because of my UA the new cities I found start off with my religion which gives me a pretty big advantage in spreading my religion to the nearby city-states. However since I founded the religion after I captured it, Amsterdam remains un-religious. At this point my happiness is pretty much through the floor so I use that to my advantage and settle two more cities, I try to get some traderoutes running to counteract my huge gold deficit.

    Now all other civs in the game hates me, but they don't seem like they want to act on it, probably because they are scared of my huge army of archers. My religion is pretty well spread, probably because I enhanced it before the second religion was founded and also because I settled a lot of cities after I founded it giving me strong autospread.

    At the moment I'm kinda waiting for the uniques, but I don't really have anything to look forward to, the conquistador could be used to capture more cities I guess but I've already had a war. The Mission still seems rather useless to me, just a few free missionaries and nothing else.
     

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