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Spain

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by void_genesis, Jan 2, 2015.

  1. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Actually, not being able to purchase buildings of other faiths is very 'reconquista'. The expulsion of jews and moors caused major problems, since they knew how to work the land, while the resettlers were more warrior kind.
     
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  2. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Here's a better idea. We don't change anything and leave as it is. It is very balanced.
     
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  3. Rekk

    Rekk King

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    Thanks for locking this thread, Engineer.
     
  4. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    Building off this, there is 100% room for a Ferdinand Modmod. =)
     
  5. nemoens

    nemoens Chieftain

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    So what you're saying is that we shouldn't expect the Spanish Inquisition?
     
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  6. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    the only time an inquisition is used for spain is to purify a foreign holy city status.
     
  7. infidel88

    infidel88 Prince

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    I gotta say with recent changes to happiness, you can't play as aggressive Spain or you'll play with constant malus to growth and unit production. I conquered few cities, resulting in my capital being 29 pop, while other cities are 11-12 at most. They can't grow, because of happiness malus - so they have distress unhappiness. They don't have as much gold as capital, so they have poverty unhappiness. Most of my cities produce max unhappiness they can. I have all possible buildings I can have in my capital, but it's also producing max unhappiness. 12 pop cities that working only sea tiles don't have :c5gold:unh, but are full of :c5food::c5production: unh. If I change it, it goes other way. I'd rather not get free :c5food: on city conquest, as it cripples my empire more than it helps.

    BTW Iroqius have 31 pop capital and couple of 10-11 pop cities and don't sem to have similar problem :shifty::shifty::shifty:
     
  8. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I thought you got food/faith for just the city conquered/settled. Did not know the food bonus apply to the Capital.
     
  9. Bhawb

    Bhawb Prince

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    Yep, Spain's food/faith bonus goes to the capital, not the city. It causes you to really need to push production as Spain and work as few food tiles as possible in your capital.
     
  10. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    If you settle a city, the food applies to the new city. If you conquer a city, it applies to the Capital.
     
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  11. infidel88

    infidel88 Prince

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    OK, so we agree this requires some solution and reshaping of Spanish UA? How does :c5culture: instead of :c5food: sounds like? Or :c5food: spread over cities instead of boost to one city?

    Right now, I repeat, Spain is unplayable.
     
  12. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Just make it that captured cities receive the food bonus. I see that as a great way to represent Spanish colonies as importing in labor instead of the Spanish Capital getting a mass flux of people instead.
     
  13. infidel88

    infidel88 Prince

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    What if you want to burn that city? Thats a wasted bonus :/
     
  14. Rekk

    Rekk King

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    Well, it would reduce the incentive to raze conquered cities and settle your own.
     
  15. infidel88

    infidel88 Prince

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    Razing cities is the best solutions in many many situations. There are various civs (France, China to name few), who capitalise on it. Why would Spain suffer? It's not like they are OP.
     
  16. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Spain is not unplayable and we don’t agree that it needs to change.

    G
     
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  17. doublex55

    doublex55 Prince

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    You can deal with your capital being unhappy as Spain, especially if you make a spectate city to focus on building land military units.

    The two penalties for an unhappy city are -% growth and -% military production. Obviously we don’t care about then-% growth. We can work enough food tiles thatbour capital is stagnant and grow anyways because of conquest. The military production would be a problem for most civilizations, but we are Spain so we don’t need to build a navy. If you are conquering so much that your capital is growing uncontrollably you probably have excess faith even after building a navy twice the size of the next competitor.
     
  18. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    What if missions spawned a free inquisitor on construction? You could then take the auto-convert on conquest out of the UA.
    • This allows Spain to time their conversions so they can purchase faith buildings from the old religion if they aren't there already. You still get a free conversion, but you have as much control over it as other civs, which is frustrating as Spain right now.
    • It allows Spain to benefit from the Inquisition enhancer belief, which they currently have no use for. As a side note, does the AI know not to pick Inquisition as Spain right now?
     
  19. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Gonna take another run at this because Spain's kit, namely their UA frustrates me. It's like a melange of weaker versions of what other civs have into this cobbled-together, yet still semi-coherent ability.
    Spoiler My problems with Spain's UA :

    1. It has a hybrid instant yield on settle/conquer mechanic like Carthage/Assyria, which funnels large amounts of :c5food: into a single city, the :c5capital:Capital.
    • My first problem with this is it's not highly unique or historically relevant. Spain got fabulously wealthy off its conquests of the New World, but Madrid didn't somehow become this burgeoning, highly populous place on account of Spain's American holdings. Not sure why killing Moors would result in food either, unless it's a nod the Encomienda system which was instituted afterwards? If so it's a pretty clunky representation.
    • It's a bit of an awkward mechanic because it rewards razing/pillaging so that you get a double-procc on your UA, so the reward can't be too big.
    • Instant food on settle interacts directly with the Mission's :c5gold:/:c5faith: on :c5citizen:growth, so that you get 3-4 turns of immediate :c5gold:/:c5faith: proccs on this building if you build it immediately in your city. It's a neat little synergy, but it feels gamey and unnecessary to have a mechanic that rewards you with instant :c5faith:faith on settle that you immediately have to burn on a building which then proceeds to just give you more :c5faith: faith in return. It's not a clever mechanic, it's just circular.
    • As a result of the immediate :c5faith: boost on settling your capital on turn 1, you're playing with a near-immediate pantheon. So a watered-down Indian UA that's delayed 7-11 turns, unless you get a :c5faith: ruin. This isn't a serious concern beyond its semi-overlap with India.
    2. Cities are converted to your religion on conquest
    • This is kinda neat, except it causes a few problems because it takes agency away from the player. What if you could have bought a faith building in that city with that old religion before converting it?
    • Overall, it's not a very valuable trait. It saves you 200:c5faith: on an inquisitor, but doesn't completely remove/replace the utility of inquisitors, because you still need to be able to remove a conquered city's holy city status, and you still need protection from other civs' active spreading via missionaries, especially if someone went Universalism.
    • Combined with the removal of all external religious pressure, converting on conquest covers >80% of my own inquisitor use cases, but you can't remove inquisitors from Spain entirely. Due to the aforementioned edge cases, Spain would be easy pickings for a missionary spam from a Dioceses/Borobodur/Universalism/etc. civ, and would have no way of countering except to burn Great Prophets to de-convert her own cities. So you still need inquisitors, but not really?
    • Not needing inquisitors most of the time is really bad for flavor, because that disables a belief which is based on Spain: Inquisition. It kinda sucks that Spain's kit overlaps in such a way that it mostly -- but not completely -- disables a belief, but it really sucks that the belief in question is based off of Spain itself, yet is somehow useless to Spain.
    3. No pressure from other religions
    • This aspect is identical to the Celts' kit. So we have 2 civs with the exact same trait, which is no fun.
    • It's also a massive middle-finger to India, who has no missionaries, so this just shuts down Ghandi's passive pressure entirely. Having 1 civ that is a hard counter to another civ is fun. Having 2 is unnecessary.
    4. Can purchase boats with Faith
    • Awesome. Totally unique ability that doesn't overlap with any other existing civ
    • Combined with Spain's UB, Spain has 2 built-in places that it can spend :c5faith:Faith, even if she hasn't founded a religion herself. This means Spain is unique by being the only religion-oriented civ that doesn't actually need a religion. That's super cool, and we should do more with that.
    • Unlike Inquisition, this part of the UA complements an existing belief: Zealotry. taking both gives total coverage for faith purchasing military units until Modern.

    So here's my proposal for a change to Spain's UA, with no changes to the UB or UU:

    Reconquista:
    3:c5faith: Faith and 3 :c5gold: Gold, scaling with Era, whenever you gain a tile. +15% :c5strength: Combat Strength against units following a different religion. An Inquisitor appears in your :c5capital:Capital when you Conquer a City following a different religion. May purchase Naval Units with :c5faith: Faith.​

    Notes on this proposal:
    • There already exists code for Trait_YieldFromTileSettle, Trait_YieldFromTileStealCultureBomb, Trait_YieldFromTileCultureBomb, Trait_YieldFromTileConquest, Trait_YieldFromTileEarn, and Trait_YieldFromTilePurchase.
    • America and Russia already use Trait_YieldFromTileEarn, and Trait_YieldFromTilePurchase for their UAs, but Spain would use ALL of them. a tiny amount of :c5faith: Faith and :c5food: Food literally any time you gain a tile.
    Advantages:
    • Feels different from America and Russia's existing mechanics, which are all about border blob, but don't account for tiles gained via settling/conquering/citadels. Neither of the civs which Spain would now overlap with are already faith civs, so it's a more comfortable overlap than the existing overlaps with India and Celts.
    • It puts Spain's turn 1 :c5faith: faith further behind India, at just 21:c5faith: total, but gives immediate room to expand via tile purchasing and natural border expansion, so the early faith feels less jumpy.
    • swapping :c5food: for :c5gold: on the UA doesn't combine for that early growth spurt for that weird interaction with the Mission, where you are forced to spend your :c5faith:Faith from conquest just to earn it all back from :c5faith: on :c5citizen:Growth.
    • Giving free inquisitors on conquest complements the Inquisition belief, rather than overwriting it. You can now expect the Spanish Inquisition.
    • Leans into Spain's unique religious flavor; you don't Need to found a religion to get full use of your UA, but you have an extra source of :c5faith:Faith that you can leverage for missions/boats. Players can now decide if they want to pursue a religion/enhance, or if they would rather pump out more units for early naval dominance. Spain can get by just fine if someone else's religion was spread to them.
    • Not having to be a founder, and adding a bonus vs other religions adds that reconquista flavor in a different way than the forced conversions. It's also a little extra historical flavor. Spain didn't invent Roman Catholicism, but the various Visigothic kingdoms which survived the fall of Rome in the 5th century were considered the defenders and preservers of a rich, Roman Catholic tradition until they were conquered by the Moors.
    • WRT gameplay, this leans into Spain’s existing complementarity with existing beliefs, but doesn’t overwrite them.
      • Adopting zealotry would give land and water faith purchases
      • Adopting inquisition would give yields off your free inquisitors
      • Adopting Crusader Spirit would reinforce your combat bonus vs other religions
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2019
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  20. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Spain's cities can never be converted another religion at all, there is no need to defend against foreign missionaries.
     

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