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Spain

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by void_genesis, Jan 2, 2015.

  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Ok I wasn't crazy. I kept reading this going "holy crap have I just never noticed that Spain can be missionaried?"
     
  2. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    Ah, I’ve never made it past renaissance with Spain (got bored), and so I never had to deal with the inquisitor interaction. Doesn’t that make it worse though? The only reason you need inquisitors is to remove Holy cities.
     
  3. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    If you take a holy city, it converts to your religion I'm pretty sure. Inquisitors are just beneath Spain:)
     
  4. Bhawb

    Bhawb Chieftain

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    Essentially, Spain has a permanent Inquisition at all times. Why buy them when your civ is the Inquisition.
     
  5. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Warlord

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    Spain does remove holy city status on conquest or did every single time I played it - unless a patch ninja broke it somehow in around 4 versions time, but that'd be a bug as I can't remember such a patch note. You might be mistaken because of old 4UC's Teutonic Order de-converting everyone before it turned into a good building which used different, but similar mechanic as that UNW didn't take off the status. Inquisition is basically inherent to Spain, the inquisitors are free, invisible, hassle-free and accompanying your troops. Inquisitors for Spain are only in case of Spain getting some cities/citizens converted before it founds, they're not needed otherwise.
    Yes, the enhancer won't be taken, but that enhancer's never been worth it whenever I played anyway. Even if your Spain does go Inquisition, it's still a loss of synergy from having Madrid get essentially a +1 pop every conquest that procs Mission, which allows you to get more Faith and Gold, which in turn allows you to get a boat, or an unit, or a building. It is circular but it just works.

    I really don't like the Inquisitor idea. Half the benefit of the UA's conversion is I don't have to bother sending an Inquisitor (and often Missionary) to convert them, especially over the seas. It might be a double-edged sword as if someone's religion has X/Y building and they haven't built it yet, you won't have the possibility of building them before converting, but it is unique. This way I still have to get the Missionary out, and I have to move them both rather than having the UA do it for me. It's a hassle and it takes quite some time to send the units. I agree with your implications Mission is meh because it really is unimpressive, though. Spanish God-King capital can get some nice post-conquest stuff, the rest of the cities just won't.

    Some of your points are nitpicks. Celts didn't found a religion, and are encouraged to found too, and some that did aren't religious (Germany with Protestantism, which is a separate religion here, or China, etc). Spanish UA doesn't require you to be a founder either, though I don't know what you'd do with that Faith without being a founder

    I'd rather just grant Mission something more if Spain needs it, I don't see much point of this overhaul.
     
  6. ridjack

    ridjack Chieftain

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    Maybe I'm losing it, but I thought you could missionary the Celts; they just don't receive (or generate, for that matter) passive pressure.
     
    Enrico Swagolo likes this.
  7. Bromar1

    Bromar1 Chieftain

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    Yeah I don't think Spain should even get the option of buying foreign faith buildings before Inquisition. It defeats the entire flavor. If anything, all foreign faith buildings should be immediately destroyed on capture. Instant conversion may be heavy handed and inflexible but that's kinda the point of zealous warfare. Removing the instant conversion so you can sneak in religious diversity makes Spain less unique and more gamey
     
    Rekk likes this.
  8. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    You can missionary the Celts.
     
  9. zeofig

    zeofig Chieftain

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    For me, Spain is fun and very strong. I had a few easy wins on immortal in a row, and that was before the July happiness changes. Spain's early bonuses are very good, founding is almost guaranteed. Each city instantly growing to 3 is actually quite beneficial, and you can get whatever pantheon you want. There are a few good combos. Later, the amount of food+faith you get from conquest is actually quite crazy. The bonus doesn't state how much it is, but I was getting several thousand for some cities in the Renaissance. Combined with zealotry, keeping the ball rolling was easy. Conquistadors are also very good, enhancing an already strong unit. Obviously not quite as good as cattyboyz, but still very strong. The belief (I forget which) that gives gold per citizen is super strong since it adds to the mission growth bonus.
     
  10. Necamijat

    Necamijat Chieftain

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    Obstensively one of the most powerful features is just how good Conquistadors are. They are a greatly enhanced Knight that attacks into cities well, counts as a better Pioneer that can be bought with gold/faith and doesn't cost you growth if you hard build it and benefits from bonuses to producing military. A pioneer that actually defends itself well, moves at a high rate, clears nearby barbarians, then pops a 3 pop city that already has half a dozen buildings (including a harbor, but excluding a lighthouse for some weird reason), and comes a whole era earlier, is a huge boon.

    In general, I'm playing on King (as I'm not really a minmaxy or a good player), but I'm having a blast (even trying to get my happiness above 50% so I can settle ALL THE LANDS has been a fun experience).

    On that note, why is the free building for Conqs a harbor instead of a lighthouse? Is it leftover from when Harbors made connections?
     
  11. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Inquisitors are still needed. Spain is not immune to religious pressure.
     
  12. Rekk

    Rekk Chieftain

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    Spain is immune to religious pressure.
     
  13. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    No. That's the Celts. Spain just forbids foreign missionaries.
     
  14. Rekk

    Rekk Chieftain

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    So Celts are immune to pressure but not missionaries, and Spain is immune missionaries but not pressure?

    To me, the UA for Spain is unclear given the the user needs to know that "spread" refers specifically to the "spread" action of missionaries (and great prophets?), not the spread of religion in a general sense.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2019
  15. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Religious pressure is not a spreading action.

    Yes, that includes prophets.
     
  16. Bhawb

    Bhawb Chieftain

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    Even pressure from India isn't enough to meaningfully annoy Spain, I've played both sides of that matchup and Spain is frankly worse than the Celts to deal with; you will never convert them unless they're already going to lose. I've never felt the need to build inquisitors with Spain, especially since conquering a city is a free full conversion and permanent inquisitor stationed in the city, for free.
     
  17. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    It
    It depends. I played Spain tall once (pre Faith bought ships) and I had to use inquisitor. Admittedly I didn't play to Spain strengths.
     
  18. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I agree, I’ve never seen Spain even shifted a bit by foreign influence
     
  19. Omen of Peace

    Omen of Peace Chieftain

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    I believe Rekk is right, and Spain is indeed immune? Unless it's been changed recently.
    I've never ever seen pop from a different religion in Spain, and that always happens with any other civ.
     
  20. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    I have never seen a Spanish city with another religion inside it (unless Spain missed religion). In the tooltip, the pressure does appear, but I think it does nothing.

    PS- Spain is really good.
     

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