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Spain

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by void_genesis, Jan 2, 2015.

  1. Bhawb

    Bhawb Prince

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    They are different though. If you only look at your own cities then sure, they end up being functionally the same since neither can receive foreign religious pressure. But Spain also denies foreign religious pressure to CS allies, still generates religious pressure of its own to foreign cities, and instantly converts cities on capture/settle. In comparison, Spain is much stronger at spreading its religion while the Celts get a stronger religion from their pantheon but has worse ability to spread religion.

    Or in other words, you can't just say they have the same religious mechanics just because neither of them can be passively converted. India also functionally cannot be passively converted, but at the end of the day all 3 of these civs have significantly different religious mechanics.
     
  2. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    So it would be more accurate to say that 1 is sugar cereal and the other is sugar cereal + a donut, and therefore they're completely different? So we're really reaching this level of up is down, devil's advocate malarky?

    So Spanish cities take no religious pressure Exactly like Celtic cities, but They extend this immunity to CS allies and can exert pressure as well. Totally different
    So Spain gets gold for settling cities Exactly like Carthage, but Spain also gets faith, and they get this bonus when conquering cities in addition to settling. Totally different.

    Well, my opinion is that this isn't enough to constitute material difference. Spain's UA, to me, appears to be cobbled together from spare parts. Your opinion may be that Spain is the most special snowflake, but then we're still stuck with the question as to why, from a gameplay perspective, my proposed changes are worse than what we already have. I've already made the changes to Isabelle's yields on expansion mechanics; I've playtested them and made them available for others to playtest as well. I could literally just copy-paste them into the github, but people are adamant that nothing be altered. This isn’t just change for change’s sake; Spain is doubled up on Carthage's UA right now, so where is this resistance coming from?
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
  3. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    The Celts do not instantly convert conquered or settled cities to their religion. This is an extremely important aspect of conquistadors and Spainl, she can get a new city and quickly start buying units. The instant conversion, conquistador settle, and faith buying of ships, combine to make a very powerful and fun to play civ. The complete lack of foreign religions in any aspect is a serious bonus, it can often be worth several points of happiness. Conquistadors are the second best UU (behind slingers which are stupid), and probably the most fun UU. Spain is unique as a civ whose gameplan is still focused on a UU, instead of the UA or UB/UI like most of VP.

    The mission directly supports the war by generating faith and gold, while having a good utility option to be faith purchased. Your Hacienda really doesn't support this, any sort of UI doesn't support this, I don't want to focus on redoing my tile improvements in the medieval era, I want to focus on war. The Hacienda would be a good UI for a builder or infrastructure focused civ, but as is it is pretty food heavy, on a civ who wants to conquer and thus probably needs to limit growth.

    With the above uniques, Spain is very strong, but somewhat inconsistent, she needs some extra faith in the early game to help her found a religion, this is especially important to help the AI. The bonus on settling is worth about 160-200 faith pre-religion, which is decent. Smaller than what Ethiopia or India get, but still good. I'm not sure if there needs to be another yield on settling or conquering, at all.

    Dan's UA is probably way too strong, unless you intend to drop faith purchasing of ships. Just side by side against Russia, Spain would have a better UA, UU, and UB/UI. Really though, comparing to the Celts, Assyria, Russia, and America makes me scratch my head. The closest civ to Spain is Byz, both are religion focused, have a knight UU, a medieval UB that produces faith, and represented by European women. Spain is basically a less consistent, less flexible, but potentially much stronger Byzantium.
     
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  4. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

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    Well I was redirected here.

    What's the reasoning for making Spain's UA partly the same as Carthage's? Instant yield gold on founding cities is significant enough in terms of affecting your civ strats that it shouldn't be something that overlaps so strongly. Gold on conquest is appropriate for Spain however... more than food for sure.

    VP has done an excellent job in making civ UAs more interesting. This particular overlap just doesn't feel consistent or right
     
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  5. Bhawb

    Bhawb Prince

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    It isn't so much that Spain's UA was made to purposely be similar to Carthage as much as gold made the most sense alongside faith to be on Spain's UA, and that happens to overlap on Carthage. Which is an unfortunate crossover that isn't ideal, but does properly depict what both civilizations did IRL. I do like Dan's UA suggestion even if we had to make it pretty low yields to be balanced, because at least it would be distinct.
     
  6. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Could be set to 3:c5gold:2:c5faith: if that's the case. Then it would be 21:c5gold:14:c5faith: on your initial settle.

    All the different methods of tile claim can have their yields set independently. ie. claiming tiles via conquest/Citadels could be worth more than settling/border growth. There's even the ability to set specific yields for specific terrain types (ie. grassland can give different yields than plains)
    I didn't say squat about my UI proposal just now, but the second UI proposal I did had 0 food on it. The UI proposal isn't a huge deal to me; saves me a ton of work redoing 4UC anyways.
    You're one of those guys that eats too fast, eh G?
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
  7. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

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    Any comments on @tu_79's UB?
     
  8. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

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    Well then perhaps with the latest settler changes, we should look into making Carthage more distinct by adding some bonuses to city settlement.
     
  9. Chandler

    Chandler Warlord

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    The numbers should be able to scale accordingly with game speed, so even numbers would be ideal, be either 2:c5faith:/2:c5gold:, 4:c5faith:/4:c5gold:, 4:c5faith:/2:c5gold:, or 2:c5faith:/4:c5gold:.

    2 seems pretty low to me, though 4 might be too much. However, what I thought it'd be nice is if not only did the numbers scale with era (and game speed, yeah), but that were also doubled upon owning a religion be it founded or stolen from another civ. And, if we wanted to go crazy, they could be tripled after a reformation. If that's codeable, I mean.
     
  10. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    I assume that when any of my proposals is ignored it's just a polite way to push it down.
    I don't even intend to have it accepted as is, but just helping with the brainstorm. An idea here, another there, suddenly someone tooks pieces of them and find something that can be broadly liked. Then, it gets fine tuned to make it work properly.

    I like the idea of the UB boosting villages, it's something no other civ does and fits thematically. But I also understand that something like this requires new code, and there must be a really good reason for adding new code. First, it must be accepted that the current building is not doing the right job and that it can't be fixed with some tuning. This is what pineappledan tries to do. Then, another solution must be found that satisfy everyone, then G or any coder must be willing to make the code... Too many steps for new ideas.
    The other option is doing it yourself, which I'm not ready to do, nor think that many would like.
    Tuning Communitas mapscript has been tough enough. It takes a long time to even understand what the basic functions actually do.
     
  11. Thibix Magnus

    Thibix Magnus Chieftain

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    just for brainstorming purposes, a very simple mechanic would be to receive gold whenever an inquisitor performs inquisition, based on number of converted citizens, either as UA or unique Spanish inquisitor (UA should be different in either case) - this can stack with the enhancer.

    But you also benefit from all other religions present in a city in some way (benefits from pantheons, or + culture for every other religion). So you have a branching, conflicting mechanic for Spain where you can choose your path: either go full inquisition, or change history by assuming the al-andalus heritage.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
  12. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I hadn't done any research on bull fighting before your suggestion, but it really is peak Spanish. It's found throughout the Iberian peninsula, not just a specific region, and it's a pre-roman tradition which continues to be one of the most popular and well-attended events in modern Spanish culture. It has an overt religious edge to it, but probably a tourism or culture aspect as well, and that might be less in-line with Spain's current game design. As you say, to switch from 1 UB to another UB would need a damn good gameplay reason for happening. I had figured, wrongly, that a switch to a UI would be more positively received because of the additional aesthetic that a UI brings.

    The polder boosts villages already, so it wouldn't be a highly unique ability, but I think the idea could be workshopped a bit to get something more unique. As I said, I would prefer to see the Hacienda integrated, but if it were, I would have definitely incorporated the bull ring into 4UC over the mission.
     
  13. Omen of Peace

    Omen of Peace Prince

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    That sounds worth a try: drop the newly added gold on settling/conquest, just give faith.

    Spain's toolkit is probably strong enough without that.


    What I like in dan's proposal is the fact that stealing tiles via GG could give yields... but in any case that could be added elsewhere (Lebensraum is the logical place, but it's strong already, so the yields would need to be low).
     
  14. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    I must admit I never played Netherlands. My bad.

    Even though I dislike bull fighting, I agree that this is much more representative of Spain than missions, no matter how good DeNiro and Redford movie was. But the key is still that strong reasons must be found to drop the existing uniques, not just changing for the shake of change. CrazyG made a strong support for keeping it as is, regarding gameplay: it fits better a warmonger to not expend time rebuilding everything to keep going. I guess that calls for keeping a UB instead of a UI, but it doesn't mean that Mission should be left as is. My take is that it is too good to just found or conquer a city and immediatly have it with your own religion AND a castle. That's too much. That's absurdily safe to expand with Spain, only happiness setting the reins. Moving the Unique Building to a Circus will open a weakness in Spain conquering, turn it to faith generation (so it sinergizes with the ship buying).

    Note: Polders gain +1 gold for every adjacent village. I was suggesting that Plaza de Toros gave +2 faith to every worked village, and +1 production for every improved resource adjacent to the village (a village with 2 adjacent improved resources will give +2 faith +2 production + whatever a villages produces already). Not exactly the same, the dutch gain the bonus on their UI, this building will give a bonus to a basic improvement.
     
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  15. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Took @CrazyG's advice.
    Hacienda is now moved to Compass in 4UC
    My Spain rework now gains 3:c5gold:2:c5faith: for every tile gained through any means.
    reworked inquisition mechanic
    Removed instant convert on conquest and no external pressure
    On Conquest, a free inquisitor spawns in the capital, if Spain's :c5capital: Capital has a religion
    Can get free inquisitors before enhancing, can use in combination with inquisition belief ​

    As CrazyG suggested, the inquisition UA is too powerful in conjunction with so many free yields. This new mechanic is slightly more novel -- no other civ gets free units from their UA -- but keeps the inquisition flavor.
     
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  16. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    That changes the interaction with India quite a bit.
     
  17. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    How so? Now India can use its passive pressure to affect Spain like any other civ. Better than the current system where Spain just hardcore shuts India down entirely
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
  18. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Exactly. That's a big change. For better or worse remains to be seen.
     
  19. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    irrefutably for better. Spain’s immunity to foreign religious pressure is not interesting as a design.

    India cannot do active religious spread and boosts passive spread.
    Celts have immunity to passive spread at the cost of having no passive spread themselves, and can only actively spread.
    Spain can both actively and passively spread themselves, while being immune to both active and passive spread. Religious defense functionally does not exist to them; they subtract a game mechanic with no trade off.

    Of the 42 other civs in the game, 2 of them are completely immune to India’s UA. At least 1 of them pays for it in some way. Spain hard countering another UA with no no downside isn’t something I think we should preserve.
     
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  20. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Why are we discussing mod mods in the leader thread? Take this to the modmod sub forum please, I don’t want to confuse people into thinking that the VP Spain is changing.
    G
     
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