Spain

Pitch for Spain UA

Foremost Daughter of the Church - Can not found a religion. Capital can convert to the religion of any Spanish city that has a non Pantheon religion. Capital acts as a Holy City once converted. Can benefit from Founder Belief of adopted religion in Capital. Retain original pantheon (convert into Sainthood).

Can faith purchase recon units, settler units (including their UU) and Naval Units. Gain a free inquisitor upon city capture. Gain faith and gold from the use of inquisitors.


I like unique disadvantages, but very few civs have any. Anyway, Spain is a non-founder who still gets to benefit like one. And they can still conquer the Holy City of the founder to gain control of the religion for future picks, and take the founding religious wonder. If they do, the conquered Holy city does not keep getting the benefits. Since that would make some like Holy Law, Council of Elders, Ceremonial Burial and Way of the Pilgrim OP. While Theocratic Rule would be useless.

Spain then uses this disadvantage to fuel expansion, exploration and naval dominance (and of course purchasing missions, which might need some slight modification). And upon taking cities of foreign religions, the use of Inquisitors gives even more faith, as well as gold. Fueling more expansion.

Spain also retains the use of their original pantheon. This is a bit more of a Catholic thing, that worship of Saints and some aspects of former pagan worship was retained. But that isn't really represented by beliefs. And of course, since you can't found a religion you could lose your handpicked pantheon, that is suited to the local terrain. Don't want to be totally reliant on the AI. And Two pantheons is a decent bonus.

Of course, that also means Spain is free to pick lower faith pantheon since they don't have a rush for religion. Which can cost them in terms of pumping out settlers, recon units and naval units. But that is the nature of trade-offs.


This Spain would be very much an Authority - Fealty Civ.


As for the existing UA. The food gain on settlement is an odd choice. Spain isn't particularly highly populated, nor where they particularly focused on actually settling their possessions. Estimates are that only about a million Spanish went to the Americas. The larger population came down to conquering the existing more densely settled parts of the Americas. If anything, England should have that bonus, since they sent lots of colonists from their homeland.

And their UA also removes the need to actually go about converting their own cities. When Spain did the inquisition a bit later, not immediately after conquest. While this new one still encourages them to convert their empire, like historically they did with the Americas and the Philippines.
 
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I find it strange to build Conquistadors in Medieval but they can found cities only one era later - once ocean crossing is available. It's intended this way?
 
They can still found cities on islands not separated by (deep) ocean.
 
I find it strange to build Conquistadors in Medieval but they can found cities only one era later - once ocean crossing is available. It's intended this way?
Even if on Pangea you still have multiple continents. The distinction is very arbitrary and hard to tell in game. Think of being in India on earth map. You could settle in Africa or Europe, but not China.

That said the unit is still one of my favorites just for it's godlike wartime potential, but I wouldn't mind a more clear indicator of other continents. (Or just remove the restriction entirely. How often are there still spaces to settle by then?)
 
How about letting conquistadores cross oceans at compass?

Pitch for Spain UA

Foremost Daughter of the Church - Can not found a religion. Capital can convert to the religion of any Spanish city that has a non Pantheon religion. Capital acts as a Holy City once converted. Can benefit from Founder Belief of adopted religion in Capital. Retain original pantheon (convert into Sainthood).

Can faith purchase recon units, settler units (including their UU) and Naval Units. Gain a free inquisitor upon city capture. Gain faith and gold from the use of inquisitors.


I like unique disadvantages, but very few civs have any. Anyway, Spain is a non-founder who still gets to benefit like one. And they can still conquer the Holy City of the founder to gain control of the religion for future picks, and take the founding religious wonder. If they do, the conquered Holy city does not keep getting the benefits. Since that would make some like Holy Law, Council of Elders, Ceremonial Burial and Way of the Pilgrim OP. While Theocratic Rule would be useless.

Spain then uses this disadvantage to fuel expansion, exploration and naval dominance (and of course purchasing missions, which might need some slight modification). And upon taking cities of foreign religions, the use of Inquisitors gives even more faith, as well as gold. Fueling more expansion.

Spain also retains the use of their original pantheon. This is a bit more of a Catholic thing, that worship of Saints and some aspects of former pagan worship was retained. But that isn't really represented by beliefs. And of course, since you can't found a religion you could lose your handpicked pantheon, that is suited to the local terrain. Don't want to be totally reliant on the AI. And Two pantheons is a decent bonus.

Of course, that also means Spain is free to pick lower faith pantheon since they don't have a rush for religion. Which can cost them in terms of pumping out settlers, recon units and naval units. But that is the nature of trade-offs.


This Spain would be very much an Authority - Fealty Civ.


As for the existing UA. The food gain on settlement is an odd choice. Spain isn't particularly highly populated, nor where they particularly focused on actually settling their possessions. Estimates are that only about a million Spanish went to the Americas. The larger population came down to conquering the existing more densely settled parts of the Americas. If anything, England should have that bonus, since they sent lots of colonists from their homeland.

And their UA also removes the need to actually go about converting their own cities. When Spain did the inquisition a bit later, not immediately after conquest. While this new one still encourages them to convert their empire, like historically they did with the Americas and the Philippines.


This would be an interesting change, quite unique and flavorful. However it would imply quite a lot of new code, without certainty of working. Notably having one religion and two holy cities benefitting. But I really like the religious hijack concept, and like many people I agree Spain needs a complete overhaul, if the general mechanics are solidified enough for the devs.

One alternative I thought, that would also retain a bit your “strong religious non-founder approach” would be very straightforward to implement but open innovative gameplay:

Spain gets a % bonus to combat strength and/or gold / faith generation, equal to the % of the world population that follows its official religion (either founded or accepted).

No more bonus resources on founding cities, to shift Spain’s power spike to medieval-renaissance. Might keep some yields on conquering (faith, automatic conversion or free inquisitors).

Improved cities from conquistadores might retain some of the previous founding yields or a free missionary, they can cross oceans at compass.

So Spain’s focus is shifted to mid game settling and to convert the world, domination is still encouraged but it opens other gameplay options.

There would be 2 alternatives for the UA: either Spain can’t own a religion (by founding or conquering), but gets strong bonuses for converting the world for another religion as a trade-off; or Spain can also found (without faith bonus to do so) or own one, but the UA is weaker for an owned religion.

In any case it opens the option to somewhat pick your “Vatican”; a preferred player Whose Message Thou shall spread for your own interest. You can look for religions with strong spreading power but limited scaling yields, you may convert the world more easily if you are two spreaders, and decide to backstab the founder when you have used his/her religion to build your military power. You can also decide to switch allegiance and serve another religion that is stronger on the map.
 
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I am going to release a new Spain build next version. Best part about it is it uses all existing code.

Reconquista
  • Gain :c5gold:gold and :c5faith:faith whenever you gain a tile
    • Tiles gained through any means count: border growth, tile purchase, settling, conquest, citadel bomb, ruins.
    • 6:c5gold:3:c5faith: per tile, scaling with era, for every tile (ie. settling a new city is 7 new tiles, your city tile and the 6 tile ring, so that’s 42:c5gold:21:c5faith:)
  • Inquisitors are unlocked as soon as you found (rather than on enhancing)
  • Inquisitors are 2x stronger (remove heresy gives 2500 pressure, up from 1250)
  • Gain a free Inquisitor on city conquest
  • Can purchase naval units with :c5faith:faith
Next version is going to fix the FreeUnitOnConquest code. It already exists and is functional, but can’t be used to give free units that don’t have a :c5production:Production cost. The next version is going to change that so it can work for inquisitors, GPS, etc.
 
I am going to release a new Spain build next version. Best part about it is it uses all existing code.

Reconquista
  • Gain :c5gold:gold and :c5faith:faith whenever you gain a tile
    • Tiles gained through any means count: border growth, tile purchase, settling, conquest, citadel bomb, ruins.
    • 6:c5gold:3:c5faith: per tile, scaling with era, for every tile (ie. settling a new city is 7 new tiles, your city tile and the 6 tile ring, so that’s 42:c5gold:21:c5faith:)
  • Inquisitors are unlocked as soon as you found (rather than on enhancing)
  • Inquisitors are 2x stronger (remove heresy gives 2500 pressure, up from 1250)
  • Gain a free Inquisitor on city conquest
  • Can purchase naval units with :c5faith:faith
Next version is going to fix the FreeUnitOnConquest code. It already exists and is functional, but can’t be used to give free units that don’t have a :c5production:Production cost. The next version is going to change that so it can work for inquisitors, GPS, etc.

When you say "Next Version" are you referring to CPP or a Sub mod?
 
Next version of CPP. There is an update to the dll that fixes a bug in the current cpp that needs to be fixed in order for the free inquisitor on conquest ti work. Other than that, it’s sitting in my mods folder ready to go, and I will release the Spain rework as a stand-alone mod for people to test and see if they like it better than current Spain.
 
I am going to release a new Spain build next version. Best part about it is it uses all existing code.

Reconquista
  • Gain :c5gold:gold and :c5faith:faith whenever you gain a tile
    • Tiles gained through any means count: border growth, tile purchase, settling, conquest, citadel bomb, ruins.
    • 6:c5gold:3:c5faith: per tile, scaling with era, for every tile (ie. settling a new city is 7 new tiles, your city tile and the 6 tile ring, so that’s 42:c5gold:21:c5faith:)
  • Inquisitors are unlocked as soon as you found (rather than on enhancing)
  • Inquisitors are 2x stronger (remove heresy gives 2500 pressure, up from 1250)
  • Gain a free Inquisitor on city conquest
  • Can purchase naval units with :c5faith:faith
Next version is going to fix the FreeUnitOnConquest code. It already exists and is functional, but can’t be used to give free units that don’t have a :c5production:Production cost. The next version is going to change that so it can work for inquisitors, GPS, etc.
Seems like a pretty big change not to discuss.

I don't hate it, though I liked the food in your capital quite a bit. This might be more flavorful, but I love the gameplay of a big spanish capital. Maybe start with 3:c5food:/3:c5gold:/3:c5faith: in capital and see how the numbers work?
 
Seems like a pretty big change not to discuss.

I don't hate it, though I liked the food in your capital quite a bit. This might be more flavorful, but I love the gameplay of a big spanish capital. Maybe start with 3:c5food:/3:c5gold:/3:c5faith: in capital and see how the numbers work?
the good in the capital has been gone for almost a year now. Replaced with gold. I also lobbied to replace the mission with a hacienda UI that gave :c5gold::c5production::c5food:, but I got a lot of pushback for that.

This rework preserves the conquest flavor, but alters the mechanics don’t it works different from Assyria/Carthage. There has been a lot of discussion about how Spain suffers from overlap with Carthage and celts, since they don’t take foreign pressure, and how they should have a bonus to inquisitors somehow.
 
the good in the capital has been gone for almost a year now. Replaced with gold. I also lobbied to replace the mission with a hacienda UI, but I got a lot of pushback for that.

This rework preserves the conquest flavor, but alters the mechanics don’t it works different from Assyria/Carthage. There has been a lot of discussion about how Spain suffers from overlap with Carthage and celts, since they don’t take foreign pressure, and how they should have a bonus to inquisitors somehow.

I played a game a few games ago and it seems like I got food in my capital from conquest. Maybe I'm mistaken? My capital was waaay bigger than the AIs so I assume I did.
 
You are right; it has been changed back to food at some point recently.
Code:
INSERT INTO Trait_YieldFromConquest
    (TraitType, YieldType, Yield)
VALUES
    ('TRAIT_SEVEN_CITIES', 'YIELD_FAITH', 150),
    ('TRAIT_SEVEN_CITIES', 'YIELD_FOOD', 75);

INSERT INTO Trait_YieldFromSettle
    (TraitType, YieldType, Yield)
VALUES
    ('TRAIT_SEVEN_CITIES', 'YIELD_FAITH', 40),
    ('TRAIT_SEVEN_CITIES', 'YIELD_FOOD', 40);
And a rather extraordinary amount of faith on conquest...

Spoiler And here is my proposal for the Hacienda :


UI - Hacienda
(Worker Improvement):
available at Compass
build time - 8 turns
Can be built anywhere, but not adjacent to other Hacienda

+1 :c5food: Food, :c5production: Production, :c5gold: Gold
Gains yields for each adjacent city and resource:
+1 :c5culture: Culture if adjacent to a city
+2 :c5food: Food for each Bonus Resource
+2 :c5production: Production for each Strategic Resource
+2 :c5gold: Gold for each Luxury Resource​

+1 :c5culture: Culture at Architecture
+1 :c5gold: Gold and +1 :c5production: Production at Fertilizer.

I figured if my proposed change for Spain's UA gained traction, the Mission would seem 1-dimensional and out of place. The emphasis would be on gaining tiles, so a UI would be thematic. Furthermore, it helps distinguish Spain from America (yields for bought tiles and a UNW), and Russia (yields from border growth a UB). The similarity to Russia, with a defense line UB is also uncomfortable.
 
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You are right; it has been changed back to food at some point recently.
Code:
INSERT INTO Trait_YieldFromConquest
    (TraitType, YieldType, Yield)
VALUES
    ('TRAIT_SEVEN_CITIES', 'YIELD_FAITH', 150),
    ('TRAIT_SEVEN_CITIES', 'YIELD_FOOD', 75);

INSERT INTO Trait_YieldFromSettle
    (TraitType, YieldType, Yield)
VALUES
    ('TRAIT_SEVEN_CITIES', 'YIELD_FAITH', 40),
    ('TRAIT_SEVEN_CITIES', 'YIELD_FOOD', 40);
And a rather extraordinary amount of faith on conquest...

Spoiler And here is my proposal for the Hacienda :


UI - Hacienda
(Worker Improvement):
available at Compass
build time - 8 turns
Can be built anywhere, but not adjacent to other Hacienda

+1 :c5food: Food, :c5production: Production, :c5gold: Gold
Gains yields for each adjacent city and resource:
+1 :c5culture: Culture if adjacent to a city
+2 :c5food: Food for each Bonus Resource
+2 :c5production: Production for each Strategic Resource
+2 :c5gold: Gold for each Luxury Resource​

+1 :c5culture: Culture at Architecture
+1 :c5gold: Gold and +1 :c5production: Production at Fertilizer.

I figured if my proposed change for Spain's US gained traction, the Mission would seem 1-dimensional and out of place. The emphasis would be on gaining tiles, so a UI would be thematic. Furthermore, it helps distinguish Spain from America, who gets yields for bought tiles and has a UNW, and Russia, who gets yields from border growth and has a UB (which is also in the defensive line)
Honestly I really, really, really like everything you've got if we make the yields on tiles to 3:c5food:/3:c5gold:/3:c5faith: in capital. Getting a giant capital is one of the most fun/satisfying parts of playing spain, and I'd hate to lose it. If I was there when it wasn't food, I'd have been complaining. I think the inquisitors are more flavorful but weaker, which is fine, because I think Spain is the best civ right now. The "gaining tiles" mechanic is way more flexible and fun than their current UA, so I like it better overall.

That UI is super cool too! I love positioning related stuff! The AI might have trouble planning it is my only concern.

I can't state enough though how important it is to me that the UA gives food to the capital. Spain is one of my favorite civs, and it's a huge part of why.
 
Honestly I really, really, really like everything you've got if we make the yields on tiles to 3:c5food:/3:c5gold:/3:c5faith: in capital.
You would have to consult @HungryForFood for where the yields go for conquest. Yields from border growth/purchase/tile bomb/ruin would go to the city that owns those tiles.

If you like growing a big capital, you should check out the Khmers
 
You would have to consult @HungryForFood for where the yields go for conquest. Yields from border growth/purchase/tile bomb/ruin would go to the city that owns those tiles.

If you like growing a big capital, you should check out the Khmers

If the yields on conquest go to the capital I'd be fine with it, but if not then it's not something I'd be as excited about. I really would like to see food as one of the yields regardless.
 
Do inquisitors give pressure when removing heresy? I thought they just remove all the pressure from other religions. Also can the stronger inquisitors block foreign active/passive spread 100% when stationed in a city?
 
Well here is another pitch which I think fits Spain better. And I think too many civs have stuff dealing with border expansion at the moment

UA - Treasure Fleets

Can establish Gold Internal Trade Routes (existing code according to @pineappledan), with extra gold from annexed cities and scaling by distance from the target city. Each internal trade route increases empire happiness by 1.

All of your Units gain +20% Strength if within 3 tiles of a Natural Wonder, Capital or Holy City. Free Inquisitor on city conquest, and removing religion generates gold and golden age points. Doubled yields against holy cities.

May purchase Naval Units and Courthouses with Faith.

----

So basically Spain is an Authority-Fealty Civ, with a strong emphasis on gold. They have access to gold from internal trade routes. Which can either be particular gold internal trade routes, or gold attached to food/production routes. Either way, it isn't a lot of new code, if any.

They also take part of the Iroquois bonus (who can have something else), but expand it beyond a niche natural wonder bonus, to a conquest bonus focused on capitals, holy cities and Natural wonder cities. Again, not a lot of new code.

Finally, the existing Naval units purchased with faith, but expanded to courthouses as well to fuel conquest. Thought possibly it could be fully purchasing them with gold, to give something to plough all this excess gold into.
 
UA - Treasure Fleets

Can establish Gold Internal Trade Routes (existing code according to @pineappledan), with extra gold from annexed cities and scaling by distance from the target city. Each internal trade route increases empire happiness by 1.

All of your Units gain +20% Strength if within 3 tiles of a Natural Wonder, Capital or Holy City. Free Inquisitor on city conquest, and removing religion generates gold and golden age points. Doubled yields against holy cities.

May purchase Naval Units and Courthouses with Faith.
I don't think a UA's text could be that long.
 
I think that this:
  • Gain :c5gold:gold and :c5faith:faith whenever you gain a tile
  • Gain a free Inquisitor on city conquest
  • Can purchase naval units with :c5faith:faith
Would be enough for a very strong UA, without being too long or too complex. I don't see an elegant way to adjust this so that it adds food to the capital as Elliot wants though.
 
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