Spain

[SuperNoobCamper]

A minor gripe but i don't like Conquistadors obsoleting at military science instead of combustion; The rule with pretty much every UU is it obsoletes after it's successor obsoletes so i thing Conquistadors should obsolete when land ships go online.

 

[youngsteve]

A minor gripe but i don't like Conquistadors obsoleting at military science instead of combustion; The rule with pretty much every UU is it obsoletes after it's successor obsoletes so i thing Conquistadors should obsolete when land ships go online.

This was my complaint about the Amercan Minuteman. Not sure if that has been changed in the latest versions. You are right though.

 

[pineappledan]

Here’s a crazy idea: what if the conquistador was an Explorer replacement?

• conquistadors come too early right now, a bit anachronistic for IRL Spain
• They don’t cross deep ocean because it would be cheating if Spain got to do that with a strong land unit 2 techs early... but explorers come 1 tech later and they do that. It’s what they do.
• They currently give a free harbor on settle before harbours are even unlocked, but explorers unlock on the same tech as harbor
• They’re a little too good as just straightforward combat units right now, so they aren’t sent out to settle new colonies, they’re just stronger knights
• Outside of their settling ability, their unique promotions are extra vision that is lost on upgrade, and extra vision/defense on embark... it seems like this unit already just wants to be an explorer unit. People are just making hay on the bonus CS, and ignoring those bonuses, because they need to wait until astronomy to use them unless there is a nearby shallow island or it’s an archipelago map
• If they were explorers they could get the brute force, treasure hunter, and embarkation bonuses which are all very thematic.
• There are already loads of unique knights, but only 1 unique explorer.
• Their free buildings on found wouldn’t feel so situationally OP if it were only 1 tech before pioneers, rather than 2

You could keep the 4 moves, mounted status, and give them 22 CS (2 less than knight, but +5 over explorer) but give them all the scout line promotions and bonuses. They would still be okay in a fight, but they wouldn’t have access to the combat promotions. They would be more than enough power to cross the ocean to new lands, clear the “natives”, and found a new city there

 

[Hinin]

Here’s a crazy idea: what if the conquistador was an Explorer replacement?

• conquistadors come too early right now, a bit anachronistic for IRL Spain
• They don’t cross deep ocean because it would be cheating if Spain got to do that with a strong land unit 2 techs early
• They give a free harbor on settle before harbours are even unlocked, but explorers unlock on the same tech as harbor
• They’re a little too good as just straightforward combat units right now
• If they were explorers they could get the brute force, treasure hunter, and embarkation bonuses which are all very thematic.
• There are already loads of unique knights, but only 1 unique explorer.
• Their free buildings on found wouldn’t feel so situationally OP if it were only 1 tech before pioneers, rather than 2

You could keep the 4 moves, mounted status, and give them 22 CS (2 less than knight, but +5 over explorer) but give them all the scout line promotions and bonuses. They would still be okay in a fight, but they wouldn’t have access to the combat promotions.

I'm all for new reconnaissance UUs (even more so if it allows a rework of the branch after Explorer). However, I would be for giving them almost the same production cost as Knights (maybe even 200 production) because of their high stats, the lack of required SResource, and the fact that they often were Reconquistadores before being Conquistadores (the Conquista abroad being the direct continuation of the Reconquista once the Iberian peninsula was under Christian control).

 

[pineappledan]

This would be new code, but what if the conquistador also gave another, unique building for free on settle?

Mission
2
4
On construction, Spreads the majority religion of the capital to this city.

so that would bring back the mission in a limited way, since the art is already there, be really flavourful with the conquistador New World settling ability (limits missions to other continents), bring back a bit of that pop-up Castle defensiveness, and would convert new conquistador cities to your religion automatically. It would reduce the hassle of having to take a missionary across the ocean to spread to colonies. And the conquistador already gives free buildings that no other settler unit does (lighthouse/harbor), so that’s not new territory.

 

[Stalker0]

Here’s a crazy idea: what if the conquistador was an Explorer replacement?

• conquistadors come too early right now, a bit anachronistic for IRL Spain
• They don’t cross deep ocean because it would be cheating if Spain got to do that with a strong land unit 2 techs early... but explorers come 1 tech later and they do that. It’s what they do.
• They currently give a free harbor on settle before harbours are even unlocked, but explorers unlock on the same tech as harbor
• They’re a little too good as just straightforward combat units right now, so they aren’t sent out to settle new colonies, they’re just stronger knights
• Outside of their settling ability, their unique promotions are extra vision that is lost on upgrade, and extra vision/defense on embark... it seems like this unit already just wants to be an explorer unit. People are just making hay on the bonus CS, and ignoring those bonuses, because they need to wait until astronomy to use them unless there is a nearby shallow island or it’s an archipelago map
• If they were explorers they could get the brute force, treasure hunter, and embarkation bonuses which are all very thematic.
• There are already loads of unique knights, but only 1 unique explorer.
• Their free buildings on found wouldn’t feel so situationally OP if it were only 1 tech before pioneers, rather than 2

You could keep the 4 moves, mounted status, and give them 22 CS (2 less than knight, but +5 over explorer) but give them all the scout line promotions and bonuses. They would still be okay in a fight, but they wouldn’t have access to the combat promotions. They would be more than enough power to cross the ocean to new lands, clear the “natives”, and found a new city there

So I'm somewhat buying what your selling. I agree with you that, on paper, Conquistador as an explorer unit makes a lot of sense. My concerns:

• I would argue the Conquistador is one of the weaker knight UUs right now after the nerf a long time ago. I think the Cataphract and N. Elephant are better overall UUs in terms of combat. This doesn't change the main argument it just leads into my next point.
• Even with my belief that the conquistador is not the strongest in straight up combat, removing it for a stronger explorer does remove Spain's big medieval war push. Spain would just have their ability to faith generate a navy, which is quite solid....but does really change the dynamic of the civ....a lot. So....do we compensate by buffing the conquistador's "explorer form" even more....or do we accept that Spain is no longer a medieval war civ and be ok with that? I'm torn myself.
• I do like the mission concept as you outlined, brings some of the old Spain flavor back without the full UB shoe horn.

 

[stii]

I do like more interesting UU. An explorer type unit is much more flexible than just a stronger knight.

 

[Gazebo]

Spain is already a fairly complicated civ. Further complicating the UU feels a bit much.

 

[pineappledan]

Spain is already a fairly complicated civ. Further complicating the UU feels a bit much.

moving a knight replacement to be an explorer replacement isn’t any more complicated is it? Or do you mean adding the mission back in as a freebie? That’s my attempt at simplifying the civ, actually, lol

Even with my belief that the conquistador is not the strongest in straight up combat, removing it for a stronger explorer does remove Spain's big medieval war push. Spain would just have their ability to faith generate a navy, which is quite solid....but does really change the dynamic of the civ....a lot. So....do we compensate by buffing the conquistador's "explorer form" even more....or do we accept that Spain is no longer a medieval war civ and be ok with that? I'm torn myself.

if the CS were kept high, I think the medieval power spike is still there.
If conquistador had the following stats:
3 moves
24 CS
All the explorer stuff (Ignores terrain, defense embarked, high vision, etc)

With those stats, it could replace longswords etc in your army, and would be better at city sieges etc than a knight, because it would benefit from terrain and not have a penalty vs cities.

For unique promotions, the conquistador could drop the vision and embarked stuff (because it gets that stuff by virtue of being an explorer anyways). Maybe it could get city assault as a unique promotion instead?

 

[Gizmoman]

Honestly not a huge fan of an explorer UU. I mean yes conquistadors were technically explorers, but famous for bringing horses and guns and conquering cities.

 

[pineappledan]

The biggest problem with explorer UUs is they upgrade into zeppelins

 

[DeAnno]

I like the idea of the explorer UU, and tbh cutting some other stuff off Spain if they're too complicated is maybe the way to go. Right now to Colonize Spain has to research Astronomy and then send a bunch of Knights which might rather be on the front line. The AI can do that too with Settlers, and sure they don't have the Banking for Pioneers maybe but they're an AI they don't care. With the UU Explorer Spain has an actual colonization advantage, they can do it at Compass. I think drop the Mission though. Maybe also drop the Inquisitor bonuses (which have caused some strife anyway) and leave them to the Enhancer which does it better anyway.

 

[pineappledan]

I've got a bunch of ideas from feedback from people on what to do. Here's what I was thinking for a bit of a Spain refurbishing:

Reconquista

• Remove 2x spread from Inquisitors - It never actually worked. There is code for it, but it's a dead column that doesn't actually affect anything.
• Inquisitors do not cost maintenance - Now if you don't need or want to expend your inquisitors they aren't a burden. You can station inquisitors in all your cities at no cost.

Hacienda

• Currently it gives 111 and 2/// for each adjacent bonus/strategic/luxury/city tile
• Remove city adjacency - If you settle on resources, you could get 2 different adjacency boosts from a single tile.
• Change base yield to 5Border Growth Points
• +1 for each adjacent resource of any kind
• Now only 1 kind of adjacency. People have been complaining that the improvement is needlessly complex.

Conquistador

• Make it an Explorer UU unlocked at Compass.
• 3 base movement and 24CS (same CS as knight)
• Remove the unique promotions for +1 vision. Gets embarkation vision and defense because it's an Explorer (ie. they aren't unique promotions anymore)
• Give them City Assault promotion for Free

 

[Stalker0]

• Currently it gives 111 and 2/// for each adjacent bonus/strategic/luxury/city tile
• Remove city adjacency - If you settle on resources, you could get 2 different adjacency boosts from a single tile.
• Change base yield to 5Border Growth Points
• +1 for each adjacent resource of any kind
• Now only 1 kind of adjacency. People have been complaining that the improvement is needlessly complex.

So as an example:

• No adjacent resources: 5 border growth (no bonuses)
• 1 adjacent bonus/strategic/lux: 5 border growth +1
• 2 adjacent bonus/strategic/lux: 5 border growth +2

So I have it right?

Conquistador

• Make it an Explorer UU unlocked at Compass.
• 3 base movement and 24CS (same CS as knight)
• Remove the unique promotions for +1 vision. Gets embarkation vision and defense because it's an Explorer (ie. they aren't unique promotions anymore)
• Give them City Assault promotion for Free

So are you proposing to remove the settle ability entirely?

I don't think it needs 3 movement, honestly explorers are just wicked fast on special terrain anyway.
So I actually don't think putting CA on the UU would actually be that great. I personally don't find Drill II CA longswords (which have a way higher city attack strength than a Traiblazer CA Conquistador would have) to be all that great against castles, they still took a lot of damage. CA is going later in the game or early, but I find at medieval against castles its lowest point. On the other hand, Survival II + CA would make these units untouchable by city attacks. Actually now that I think about that....

So my worry here is with Survival II conquistadors. This is now a unit that is fortified in a forest and it has a massive 48 CS.... plus it has no direct counters (aka anti-mounted bonuses don't effect it). This is basically the cover II drill I longswords defense against ranged weapons...except you would get it against everything. And of course with Survival 3 (which you could get pretty quick if your using these guys heavily), that means all of your fort units have march. That's pretty darn strong.... but its a defensive way so its also kind of cool.

I'd at least be willing to try that combo, and see if the defense is too overwhelming.

 

[pineappledan]

So I have it right?

yes, that's right

So are you proposing to remove the settle ability entirely?

No, it would still have the settle. The settle being badly timed and on a unit that is too early to justify deep ocean movement is the main reason for the change

I don't think it needs 3 movement, honestly explorers are just wicked fast on special terrain anyway.

Explorers have 3 base moves. 24 CS would be +7 from a base Explorer though, and that's pushing it. Maybe 22CS is more fair. That still puts it on par with longswords, and only slightly behind Tercios.
The big issue with using scout line units for combat is they have very few CS bonuses on attack. With survivalism II they can usually hold up, but it's always hard to make up for them missing things like Shock and Charge.
I mainly just think City Assault would be really thematic. The Conquistadors conquered proper cities and empires above all else, and were explorers/settlers second.

 

[azum4roll]

I think the problem is actually the AI spamming the unit and then end up with an army of zeppelins but not much else. Like current Brazil.

 

[Stalker0]

With survivalism II they can usually hold up, but it's always hard to make up for them missing things like Shock and Charge.
I mainly just think City Assault would be really thematic. The Conquistadors conquered proper cities and empires above all else, and were explorers/settlers second.

What if we lowered their CS even more but gave them Survivalism II by default. That way we ensure the defense doesn't get crazy, but then they take Trailblazer I-II for a bit of attack bonus.

 

[randomnub]

Conquistador

• Make it an Explorer UU unlocked at Compass.
• 3 base movement and 24CS (same CS as knight)
• Remove the unique promotions for +1 vision. Gets embarkation vision and defense because it's an Explorer (ie. they aren't unique promotions anymore)
• Give them City Assault promotion for Free

I think the problem is actually the AI spamming the unit and then end up with an army of zeppelins but not much else. Like current Brazil.

rofl, I was going to applaud this proposed change but this made me wonder zeppelins are just a stupid unit tbh, they alter too much the scout line. Also, while this change looks good for players, I think the AI avoids fighting with its explorers, nor builds many of them. Tbh I'm not even sure the AI knows about settling cities with conquistador knights but at least fields a good amount of them for war.

Reconquista

• Remove 2x spread from Inquisitors - It never actually worked. There is code for it, but it's a dead column that doesn't actually affect anything.
• Inquisitors do not cost maintenance - Now if you don't need or want to expend your inquisitors they aren't a burden. You can station inquisitors in all your cities at no cost.

Better. I'd love for inquisitors to play a more active role in Spain kit, similar to civ6 where they give a combat boost to stacked units but that'd require coding and making sure the AI knows about it... Passive defense bonus while stationed in the city, bigger temporary cs boost in an aura when expended...

Hacienda

• Currently it gives 111 and 2/// for each adjacent bonus/strategic/luxury/city tile
• Remove city adjacency - If you settle on resources, you could get 2 different adjacency boosts from a single tile.
• Change base yield to 5Border Growth Points
• +1 for each adjacent resource of any kind
• Now only 1 kind of adjacency. People have been complaining that the improvement is needlessly complex.

I prefer this to current implementation, but would it fix the issue with resources not yet revealed counting toward the adjacency bonus?

 

[randomnub]

The settle being badly timed and on a unit that is too early to justify deep ocean movement is the main reason for the change

I understand the concern but afterall it'd be quite thematic for Spain to be a very early exploring civ. You wouldn't be able to follow up with a proper army/navy for a while and that'd give natives the chance they had irl Especially if the knight UU stopped being the powerhouse it is now, less CS boni and more utility. Either as a knight or explorer replacement though, the conquistador would settle religion-less cities and that sounds annoying, having to wait for astronomy for the first missionary, or let yourself be converted, then conquer a nearby city for an inquisitor... That's really the main gripe I have with the UA change.

 

[Stalker0]

rofl, I was going to applaud this proposed change but this made me wonder zeppelins are just a stupid unit tbh, they alter too much the scout line.

Completely off topic, but I am liking with what PADs doing with the commando in his unit tweaks mod. Its a cool unit that replaces the zeppelin in the scout line, and it just "feels" better overall.