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Spain's UA a little too good?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Circlet the Zen, Jul 3, 2012.

  1. Circlet the Zen

    Circlet the Zen Chieftain

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    Anyone else find Spain a little overpowered?

    Gain Gold for the discovery of Natural Wonders (increased if you are the first to discover it). Happiness, culture, and tile yields from Natural Wonders doubled.

    I've won two games as Spain, the first on Prince difficulty, the second on Emperor difficulty. My religion was always dominant. Both victories were via domination (the Just War belief helps a lot).

    Spain's UA + One with Nature pantheon = dominant religion
     
  2. S.K. Ren

    S.K. Ren Prince

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    Yeah, IF you can settle next to one of the damn things. I've had horrible luck as Spain when it comes to finding Natural Wonders.
     
  3. Yzman

    Yzman Deity

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    My last 2 games as spain I didn't start anywhere near a natural wonder. Then they go from "overpowered" to useless. So no, I wouldn't say they are overpowered.
     
  4. Circlet the Zen

    Circlet the Zen Chieftain

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    I guess that if you don't spawn near any wonders, you're dead, but if you do, you're set. Chancy.
     
  5. nefloyd

    nefloyd King

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    I think the only cases where they are overpowered is finding El Dorado first - you get 500 gold for your UU plus another 500 for El Dorado's bonus itself. That's two settlers you can buy or a a decent sized ancient army; last time that happened I ran rampant over my continent with my starter warrior, one i built, one I bought, and 4 purchased archers.

    The other case is fountain of youth, I *think*, since its a yield of 10 happiness, but I haven't confirmed if thats a tile yield which gets doubled or if its like old faithful where the bonus is intrinsic. Fountain is quite rare though.

    Otherwise, yeah, I'm becoming quite fond of spain lately. One With Nature is awesome. Makes the religious mountains faith powerhouses. I got the two barrier reef tiles in my second city in my current game; 4 food 2 production 2 gold 4 science 8 faith from each. Nom nom nom

    I don't think it's overpowered though. You'll probably start with a NW in workable distance but you might have to destroy another civ, conquer a city-state, or expand dangerously to snatch it. The density of NWs isn't so great that you'll normally pick up a whole bunch.
     
  6. Valbuena

    Valbuena Warlord

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  7. Darkeagle6

    Darkeagle6 Chieftain

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    My first G&K victory was with Spain, actually. Similar experience to other users above, found a faith-giving natural wonder along with its 500 bonus gold as I was the first to find it. Made me realise how useful both holy warriors and initiation rites can be for instant army purchasing. I got to make good use of the conquistadors to conquer my starting continent (no idea how much better than normal knights they really are, since I'd never really used those before) and I even got to settle a city on the other continent with one, which ended up being far more useful than I expected (essentially allowed me to buy a navy and an army to conquer the enemy capitals).

    It's likely that the natural wonder bonus really boosted my early game and contributed to my utter domination of the map, but it did allow me to comfortably explore the new mechanics (I had failed to do much in previously attempted games) and the game ended up being tons of fun. With the exception of Eldorado and Fountain of Youth, though, I'd image you'd have to be really lucky to find more than one natural wonder before anyone else, so that makes the ability a "likely to get 500 gold early" (*very* big bonus) and a "posibly have an unusually powerful tile or two in your empire" bonus, which is situational but can also make a difference.

    I don't know, actually. It can easily break the game if you have unusual luck, but otherwise it generally means an early game gold boost. 500 early gold is certainly better than a number of other UAs...
     
  8. Drawmeus

    Drawmeus Emperor

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    I don't think they're anywhere close to the Huns, Austria or a handful of others in terms of power, but they're definitely a solid 'niche' civ.
     
  9. AbenHumeya

    AbenHumeya Chieftain

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    I've found them to be largely worthless, their UU is good, but for some reason I always start so bloody far from a wonder that the UA ends up as well as not having one. Which is a bit odd, considering every time I have been any other Civ which is location-based, like with the Iroquois for example, I end up in the middle of a vast forest.
     
  10. Circlet the Zen

    Circlet the Zen Chieftain

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    Spawn near Huns = good game

    Spawn near Austria = good luck having an ally
     
  11. trystero49

    trystero49 Prince

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    I was actually just logging on to this forum to start a thread about Spain's UA; guess you beat me to it.

    I usually play Small maps on Quick speed. In case no one is familiar with the values for those settings: 6 faith makes the first pantheon, 134 for the first GP, etc.

    In my experience, Spain's UA can be massively gamebreaking if you are lucky enough to be close to Natural Wonders. I've noticed that "Disable Start Bias" usually nets you no wonders, but without Start Bias disabled, then you have a shot at getting a couple. I played two games as Spain: the first one Emperor and the second on Immortal. I essentially cruised to a victory in both.

    Generally, strategy consists of building 2 or 3 scouts and sending them in every direction. If you don't find any nearby then congratulations, your UU is worthless. If you do find something, then you get 500 gold, which is enough for you not only to buy a settler, but also to buy the natural wonder even if it's 3 tiles away (at least, on Quick). In my first game I found Mt. Fuji first, so I had my second city within 10 or so turns, and then a pantheon on the next (since Mt. Fuji nets 6 faith per turn with the UU). The other wonders I didn't find first, but I did end up with most of them under my control, after some warmongering. Cerro de Potosi nets you 20 gold, which makes it very valuable.

    My second game was true madness: within 10 turns I had found both Sri Pada (2 food, 4 faith base) and Mt. Fuji (2 gold, 3 culture, 3 faith base) and had three cities: my capital and two cities working the wonders. With One With Nature -- which is also doubled -- I ended up getting THIRTY faith per turn. I had a fully enhanced religion on turn 25.

    The biggest caveat is that you will doubtlessly stretch your empire thin, since you will expand very quickly and sometimes rather distantly (Sri Pada and Mt. Fuji were 16 and 10 tiles away from my capital, respectively). Not only will this anger your rivals, but you won't have the military to protect yourself. However, if you select "Holy Warriors" (purchase pre-industrial land units with faith) and "Defender of the Faith" (+20% combat strength near friendly city following this religion), you should be able to fend off your attackers. On this game that I played, where I expanded very quickly to grab these wonders, I ended up angering both Elizabeth and Attila the Hun. I didn't have a hard time fending them off.

    I also managed to sneak in three conquistadors on the other continent. One was for copper, one was for the Barringer Crater (which is not very useful late game, although 6 science one tile is decent in the very early game; it is comparable to an academy -- it would be a Babylon-like bonus), and the third was smack dab in the middle of the continent for the Grand Mesa (also not that useful). Pacal was mad as all hell, but did nothing, even though two of those cities were right on his borders and I had no military there. Byzantium was very cool with it. I guess Theodora doesn't get mad? America was mad as all hell though. We waged war for the rest of the game, and although he captured two of my city states, he never captured any of my cities, even though the city working the Grand Mesa was nearly surrounded by American territory.

    Conquistadors are pretty solid. I don't use them for military except for clearing out barbarians on any continents empty of civs (which has happened to me sometimes). Conquistadors are pretty useful on Large Islands, and pretty "meh" on Pangaea.

    My biggest problem with Spain is their second UA, the Tercio. I like that it's more powerful and has a bonus against mounted units, but it's increased production price is a big drawback. It's not often that I find myself staying at Gunpowder for too long, so sometimes I only produce one or two Tercios before I upgrade them to Rifleman. I would rather have Tercios that cost the same as Musketmen BUT are a little weaker, say 24 combat strength instead of 26 and 30% against mounted units instead of 50%. Anyway, that's my opinion about Spain.

    ------TL;DR------
    UA: Fantastic if you scout early/are lucky. Once had 30 faith per turn from Mt. Fuji, Sri Pada and One With Nature in the first 10-ish turns. Once fully enhanced a religion on turn 25. Otherwise, bupkis.

    Conquistador: Oddball, but useful if playing on a map that offers the opportunity for "New World" destruction of indigenous culture. (I mean, colonizing).

    Tercio: Strong, but expensive. In general, I find that tactics give this unit a short lifespan and limited use.
     
  12. StormEye

    StormEye Chieftain

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    Spain's UA sounds like too much of a gamble, and its a gamble investment that you have no idea whether its going anywhere or not since there is no data to analyze before putting down the investment and letting it flourish or rot away (along with your wasted time).
     
  13. Malachi256

    Malachi256 Prince

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    Only played Spain once and didn't have a natural wonder anywhere even remotely near me. Kinda ticked me off.

    Anything that is that hot or cold is poor design IMO.
     
  14. Harv72b

    Harv72b Prince

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    Concerning the gold bonus for wonders: at least when I've played Spain on random maps, it seems to like spawning me near the Great Barrier Reef; in two starts, I got 1,000 gold on turn 4 (both standard speed) in the first & 1,500 by turn 15 in the second (I had to get a scout promoted so I could see the second tile of the reef). So yeah, that's pretty overpowered.

    Lest ye forget, you can now upgrade your swords into muskets (or Tercios). ;)
     
  15. nefloyd

    nefloyd King

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    Holy Warriors and Tithing can make production cost irrelevant. Going on the offensive in my game and basically bought my army outright, while my cities keep cranking out buildings and wonders. France had the gall to DOW me, and a very protracted siege of Orleans that started with archers and warriors and ended with crossbows and tercios gave me a few generals and trumped up units I felt would be wasted without immediately sailing across a narrow sea to crush Montezuma
     
  16. Aldor

    Aldor King

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    I played a game with spain yesterday, no luck with natural wonders at all but still a good start otherwise. However, when I eventually built a conquistador to settle a nice spot, it was settled before I arrived there, so I returned to my home continent to settle another, worse (but still ok) spot. However, the conquistador couldn't found a city there (no "build city" icon)? Does this only work on landmasses other than the home continent?
     
  17. Arksa

    Arksa Warlord

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    It is mad powerful when you get that wonder. Found one quick, got 500 gold. Bought a settler and started working a tile for 4 gold 6 culture 6 faith and that was like turn 15 :p. Filled up liberty tree fairly quick with that and also got religion in record speeds :).
     
  18. Harv72b

    Harv72b Prince

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    Yes, conquistadors can only settle on continents other than the one your capital is on.
     
  19. Arksa

    Arksa Warlord

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    Conquistador is quite sweet. On my Spain game I managed to make about 6-8 colonies with them. With liberty, commerce and order trees, they didn't affect my happiness and most of them were working 2-5 fish tiles and important resources like coal or aluminum or oil. They grew to be quite the cities in the end with a good science output.

    They don't need any escort since they can beat the barbs themselves and also have good defence while embarked and so they can match enemy caravels.

    Tercio is ok I guess, but I didn't see AI massing any mounted units in my game.
     
  20. Polycrates

    Polycrates Emperor

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    The one thing I like about Spain now is that with the holy mountains or One With Nature and a "normal" natural wonder, they're a real wildcard chance for strongest early religion, which at least fits Spain a bit better (not a lot better...there are other civs who would be better choices for a worshipping-natural-sites bonus, but whatever). That's an appropriate level of hit-or-miss, I think, whereas the gold bonus is just too much randomness (not to mention that a magical 500 gold at 3900BC just *feels* a bit stupid).
     

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