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Spain's UA a little too good?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Circlet the Zen, Jul 3, 2012.

  1. Securion

    Securion Civ Veteran

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    I dont like Spain being so chance based... they are the only civ that can win the game in the first ten turns, and they are at the same time the only civ that can go through the whole game without ever being able to use their UA.

    Spain should be able to scout faster (and earlier) at sea, have a larger navy and have some sort of gold bonus. That would be more historical correct imho.
     
  2. nefloyd

    nefloyd King

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    If you don't use their UA it's your own fault. They will still receive gold if you aren't the first to find it, and the wonders are out there - steal them when they are available or break out the swords and MAKE them yours.

    I think they could stand a small change of some sort in order to reduce the OMG GOLD shock though. Like, give them the 100 gold upfront for discovering a NW, then spark a golden age. Or all cities get +2 gold per turn for 20 turns, or something. Less upfront bonus, more medium-term bonus. But I like their prerogative in seeking a target that is more than "you are my neighbor civ".
     
  3. Alrin Kharr

    Alrin Kharr Warlord

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    Finding just one natural wonder first as Spain can be enough to strongly tip the odds in your favor; that 500 gold can immediately buy you a Settler and let you quickly found your second or third city. Maybe it's just coincidence (or I'm imagining it) but whenever I roll up a start as Spain, I almost always find at least one natural wonder nearby. Even if you don't get the "first" bonus, the 100 gold is still a welcome early boost.
     
  4. blackcatatonic

    blackcatatonic Queen of Meme

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    It's ridiculous - either brilliant or useless. I've had plenty of games as Spain where there have been no Wonders on my continent that I've got to first. And then there have been the games where I've started within easy reach of 2 or 3.

    A more balanced UA might have been to give less gold on finding Natural Wonders but have Scouts with +1 movement... so you're more likely to find something, less likely to win the game purely because of that.
     
  5. Wuddel

    Wuddel Warlord

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    Yesterday I started as Attila pretty close to the Rock of Gibraltar and the Great Barrier Reef - wish I have rolled with spain. Spain is one of my favourite Civs, since it allows stong early expansion. I like the wonders with Food the most, since you can always work that tile.
     
  6. Bad Wolf

    Bad Wolf King

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    Spain is not inherently overpowered, its UA is just the biggest gamble of all the UAs; if you start next to a natural wonder (particularly barrier reef) it's extremely good, if you start nowhere near any natural wonders it's abyssmal. (You won't even get the hefty gold bonus later on because other civs will surely discover the wonders first.)
     
  7. Icaria909

    Icaria909 Emperor

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    Guys, Spain is definitely a tier 1 civ. There UA may be a bit of gamble (which is still greatly beneficial even if you aren't the first one to find them in the early game). Both their UUs are amazing. The tercio is stronger than most musket types and the change in G and K that allows longswords to be upgraded into them means you can field a pretty powerful army very quickly. Also, the conquistadors are one of the best UUs in the game. It has a bonus against cities, can move extremely fast through terrain, and can found cities on other continents. They are such a versatile unit, you can find a use for them in almost any situation. Spain really hits its stride in the Renaissance era, but can be very strong with these advantages.

    I would say Spain is on the same level as Austria. Austria's UA is great, but her UU and UB are not exactly game changing. In most of my games, if you can limit Austria's growth with wars, they'll never make enough money to really make great use of their UA. So for me, Austria's UA is much more a gamble than Spain's
     
  8. Gucumatz

    Gucumatz JS, secretly Rod Serling

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    Spain is amazing. I swear from reading these posts people don't seem to be using them right or get disgruntled when they don't find a wonder early when they shouldn't get disgruntled. Even if you don't find one or settle on eary it is still in the upper tier of civs.
     
  9. Glassmage

    Glassmage The Desert Flame

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    The only civ I always start with 3 scouts.
     
  10. Anvari

    Anvari Warlord

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    Spain UA is not too good, because most times it does nothing. I think it's just not balanced.

    1) The gold from "Seven Citys of Gold" should scale based on game speed and the era you are. If you can get one or two natural wonder early on, its most times an automatic win. Especially, if you can manage to get the +4 Faith belief. And 500 gold on Quick has such an bigger impact.

    2) If there are no natural wonders around, your UA does nothing. Like England on a Highland-map (ok not anymore thanks to the extra spy but i think you get my point).

    3) Even if you get a natural wonder, there are good and bad ones. Mt. Fuji is so much better, compared to Old Faithful or Grand Mesa. Its like a double lottery.

    But i love their UUs, really.
     
  11. iconocast

    iconocast Prince

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    u dont need to settle near a wonder to use the ua, u still get double happyness and gold just from finding them, the settling part is just a reason to expand with a purpose towards a wonder. they arent OP tho.
     
  12. homan1983

    homan1983 King

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    The difference in this thread seems to come from legitimate players who realize that spain without any Natural Wonders would be like playing without a UA, and the players who will roll spain and restart until they get 1-2 good natural wonders + 500-1000gold from UA.

    I agree with the poster that said its simply bad design. It shouldn't be 500 for 1st to discover vs 100, it should be much closer. And the yield bonuses can have a HUGE impact too.

    But yes spain can flip flop between most powerful UA in game to most useless. --> aka bad design.
     
  13. binhthuy71

    binhthuy71 Emperor

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    I play Random everything most of the time and of all of the available Civs, Spain is the most subject to chance. Wrong map and far from a Natural Wonder means a struggle. Right map with a Natural Wonder within settling range means you'll rage.
     
  14. Denkt

    Denkt Left permamently

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    I feel like that the Spainish UA is for the early game because if you do find a natural wonder late in game it does not give very much gold even if you find it first because 500 gold is not that much in the late game but it is much in the early game. Having a super tile is very good in the early game but in the late game it is not that good because you may have 100's of tiles worked.

    The UUs I feel comes to late for may taste because you can win allready in the ancient era if you do a good rush and waiting to the UUs seams to be a bit of a waste in most case. They may be strong but I rather take two early ones if I can.

    I do not know if it is good to build many more scouts if you play as Spain just to increase your chanse to get a bigger bonus from natural wonders. A scout cost nearly half of 500 gold which is the most you can find from a natural wonder. It can help you with other things but using your production for other things may be better.
     
  15. MaximusK

    MaximusK Warlord

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    I just finished a game as spain.

    Small, Emperor, Pangea.

    UA:

    I found Mt. Sinai as I went scouting . . . but it was at least 20 tiles away. I built Barcelona here and capitalized on the faith. +16 faith before religions are founded is huge and with it I decided to go piety/cultural victory. If it had been a different wonder I'd probably have played the whole game differently and that is what makes the game great.

    UI: Conquistador

    So Sweden showed up on my front door with an army of longswordsmen when I had barely fielded a defensive force, I was preoccupied developing my core cities between Madrid and the distant Sinai.

    I found the Conquistador to be the prefect defensive tool, combined with a few crossbowmen and pike as fodder. I was able to take Sweden's nearest city to me (it did switch sides 4-5 times and was reduced almost to rubble) . . . I threw down a citadel and a fort to form a defensive barrier.

    UI: Tercio

    Sweden showed up with a new army consisting of Hakkapeliitta. Tercios were entrenched and fortified. They didn't move and healed any damage that was dealt (by cav or crossbowmen). I threw down a 2nd citadel and watched Sweden throw Caroleans at me . . .

    It was a fun game! I liked how UA brought an element of chance to the game and it's great to see your UU's fight other civ's UU's of roughly the same era.

    I play small maps so there aren't many natural wonders which is a bummer. It would be great to be able to toggle that in map setup.
     
  16. Knut_Are_M

    Knut_Are_M Prince

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    Why not drop the gold bonus, and just have them start next to a natural wonder?
    just do not let them start next to natural wonders such as el dorado and fountain of youth.
     
  17. seasnake

    seasnake Conquistador

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    Spain is fine, it forces you to prioritize exploration and to be willing to fight for what you want. You need to accept that, focus on early scouts and military so if the wonder is within the territory of another civ you go and punch them in the mouth until it's yours. Getting 2-3 Natural Wonders in your territory will give you a massive edge, and even if your aren't the first to find them you should fighting for them.

    Never had a bad game with Spain.
     
  18. TPQ

    TPQ Cogito Ergo Civ

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    Gold for finding natural wonders is a powerful UA, but it's so reliant on chance that on average it's not OP.

    If you're lucky and find several natural wonders before the AIs, you'll have a relatively easy game and assuming you use the money wisely, you can use the cash to snowball you on to an comfortable victory.

    On the other hand, if you only find 1 or 2 wonders early on and they were discovered before you found them, the UA becomes quite mediocre and doesn't really give any significant advantage.

    In addition, settling natural wonders is too rare of an occurrence to be able to call that part of the UA powerful, let alone OP.
     
  19. Harv72b

    Harv72b Prince

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    Methinks I've got it:

    "Gold bonus for discovering a Natural Wonder after entering the classical age (bonus enhanced if first to discover it)."

    Still provides a significant benefit from the UA, but takes away the overpowering aspect of discovering a couple within the first 20 game turns.
     
  20. Lyoncet

    Lyoncet Emperor

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    I don't even think there's any compelling reason to make the bonus diminish if they're not the first. Just make it, say, 250g or so no matter what. You still want to find them early, because 250g on turn 10 is much more powerful than 250g on turn 100. Reduces some of the RNG screw, and RNG total domination (found El Dorado as Spain once. I rerolled. The game was suddenly pointless), keeps the flavor, keeps the incentive to get your scout on. Do that and decrease the yield bonus by a bit, and you could script them to consistently start by at least one NW without totally breaking the game open. Then you'd ensure their UA would never go to waste, too.
     

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