Spain's UA a little too good?

[alexmatusiak]

you guys might get mad at me. On my imortal game i had 3 wonder literally right next to each other right at the start. I founded my capital on old faithful, second city on grand mesa, third on the crater. Literally the most broken . I had 4 cities by turn 15

If you guys want the original save let me know.

Sounds like you started in North America on the World map

Always a good way to start right next to old faithful...

 

[Rex_Mundi]

I like Spain.

They play differently compared to any other civ in the game.
Spain is pretty much the only civ I would conquor a city state with.
There are only a very few situations when I would build a city off my starting continent, with Spain I'm, much more inclined to do so.

Depending on what, if any, natural wonder I get will also very much alter how I play my game, so no Spain game follow a plan or guide, I like that.

Some games turn out too easy, but then I really get to experiment, or just grab en easy win. That can be nice too.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

So not only did I start with TGBR next to Madrid, managed to settle Barcelona at a safe and isolated place next to Mt Kailash, build my 3rd city Valencia at the same isolated area to get some horses and a lot of fish. When I did begin to explore the oceans I first found Krakatoa getting another 500 gold and a little later I discovered a 5 hex island with lake Victoria. I was not the first to find that one but the only other civ I saw near it was Venice so, well, I was free to settle it as well. I lost interest in the game. Not only because after many failed Spain starts I suddenly got all I could ask for and more but because the the other civs seemed to only go to war with eachother and pretty much ignored me other then the odd denunciation (and that is really strange, they where spying on me, I killed their spies and they promised they would not do it again. But they did. So I stepped it up a little and said I could not forgive them and they understood but really they didnt since they kept on spying on me so I denounce them and all of a sudden I am the bad guy(girl)?).

Anyway. I will keep that save for a rainy day or not...

 

[isau]

I really dislike the way Spain was designed. The stakes for finding a Natural Wonder are just too high and there is no real strategy involved, you either luck into 500 gold or you don't. While you certainly can continue to play them if luck ends up not being on your side, to me this doesn't mask the fact that the UA fails to provide incentives after turn 150 or so to actually seek out the wonders any more actively than other players. Spain is all about rolling a lucky map early on. It just feels to me like a missed opportunity for something interesting.

I wish that in BNW each Natural Wonder in your borders provided an additional trade route. That would be a similar bonus (actually pay out more in the long run) but scale much better, allowing the player to seek out and conquer wonders without it being a situation where you get 100% or bust.

 

[Greizer85]

Natural wonders should provide tourism (after a tech maybe)... That they don't is one of those bizarre things in the game (along with the fact that Archaeology doesn't require Mining, etc).

And yes, Spain is either a Leviathan or a shrimp in terms of power. Randomness is never a good thing in strategy games, and when you literally build a civ around it, it's even worse. At least on TSL world maps Spain is somewhat balanced: you always get to have Gibraltar, but then you'll have to go a-colonizing/conquering to get your other wonders.

 

[Astennu]

I wouldn't say Spain's UA is bad design.

We have dozens of Civs with nice stable and predictable UA's. Adding a Civ with such a random UA is likely designed to add flavour to the game.

 

[CultureManiac]

The randomness of Spain is one of its attractions. Your strategy changes depending on which NW you find nearby ( with Potosi, with KSM, or with Mt. Sinai, or a NW with a combination of yields)
The concept is simple: send your warrior one direction. Build a scout and send it in the other. You should find a NW within 12 turns about half the time. Buy a settler and claim it. Build your strategy around what it's specific benefits are. It's far from playing by a formula.

Spain's benefits continue through the game as the double yields from NW outweigh the one-time gold boost, which is not guaranteed.

If you play Spain on pangaea then you are losing one of its best powers, which is buiding a city with a conquistador. Even midgame it is easy to find valuable NW that have not been claimed, and conquistadors have the ideal combination of horse, scout and settler.

 

[Greizer85]

Imo Spain's UA should be debuffed a bit (perhaps +50% effect), and they should be guaranteed a NW every time, with a chance for more in the vicinity. Randomness is bad in strategy games... If I got a start with no NWs as Spain, I'd just re-roll the start until I get one. It's not fun to play without your UA after all. And in multiplayer Spain must be total lolskates... Either you'll be crushed early on or you'll dominate the game so bad it's not even funny. A lovable civ in multiplayer for sure.

 

[CultureManiac]

Why do people talk about Spain's UA as if they always get El Dorado or Fountain of Youth? Mesa, or Berringer or Old Faithful certainly aren't game-breaking. If someone doesn't like the randomness, don't play Spain. Some of us love it for that reason.

 

[PrimoXanthous]

Anyone else find Spain a little overpowered?

Gain Gold for the discovery of Natural Wonders (increased if you are the first to discover it). Happiness, culture, and tile yields from Natural Wonders doubled.

I've won two games as Spain, the first on Prince difficulty, the second on Emperor difficulty. My religion was always dominant. Both victories were via domination (the Just War belief helps a lot).

Spain's UA + One with Nature pantheon = dominant religion

you might mean this. . .

Spoiler :

got 2 free settlers for that.

Also 5 turns earlier. . .

Spoiler :

just conquer Sidon and spam a Citadel next to FoY, then it would be a easy game.

Imo Spain's UA should be debuffed a bit (perhaps +50% effect), and they should be guaranteed a NW every time, with a chance for more in the vicinity. Randomness is bad in strategy games... If I got a start with no NWs as Spain, I'd just re-roll the start until I get one. It's not fun to play without your UA after all. And in multiplayer Spain must be total lolskates... Either you'll be crushed early on or you'll dominate the game so bad it's not even funny. A lovable civ in multiplayer for sure.

I suggest you play as India,

 

[Teagen]

I had a CRAZY game starting pretty close to Urulu and Mt Sinai...omg, lol, I got the +4 faith for NW panth (+8 for spain) and I had the world COVERED with my religion. I had the Tithe belief too so it really helped out.

I think by turn 20 I had something like 48 faith per turn, man that was nuts, lol.

 

[General McUgly]

Hm...I've never actually played as Spain...but if you go with the start you get, it sounds reasonable.

I mean you can set up the conditions so they massively favor your Civ in any game if you try hard enough. Restarting the game to get ideal conditions is technically cheating/exploitation, or at least it is to me.

 

[Jampine]

Spain's UA is always a gamble, which kinda reflects the real Spain at that time. Spain put a lot of effort into exploring the new world (America), and as a result, gained huge wealth from treasures and resources, but also suffer big losses too, like searching for El Doradio. Spain is most likely to have put the most resources in exploration than any other European country, and thus gained the most out of it.

But speaking of gambling, another point must be made, since I'm British: The Spanish armada, HA!

 

[qemist]

Yeah, IF you can settle next to one of the damn things. I've had horrible luck as Spain when it comes to finding Natural Wonders.

Exactly. If you aren't lucky with your starting position then Spain's UA isn't much. If you are then it can be OP.

 

[Matthew.]

I wouldn't say Spain's UA is bad design.

We have dozens of Civs with nice stable and predictable UA's. Adding a Civ with such a random UA is likely designed to add flavour to the game.

Agreed with this post. 43 Civs now in the game, we can afford to have one be a little crazy. A lot of the fun with Civ is seeing what random map your dealt, and Spain capitalizes on that fun. If you want something generic and bland, Denmark is waiting for you.

 

[njmfff]

Yeah, IF you can settle next to one of the damn things. I've had horrible luck as Spain when it comes to finding Natural Wonders.

Same here. With other civs, I would have multiple NW, but with Spain, every single one is either on useless land or in other civs territory (usually across the map).

but Spain does gets overpowered if you're lucky enough. In one game, CS next to me had FoY, so I citadel bomb it.

+20 instant happines

 

[reddishrecue]

you might mean this. . .

Spoiler :

got 2 free settlers for that.

Also 5 turns earlier. . .

Spoiler :

just conquer Sidon and spam a Citadel next to FoY, then it would be a easy game.

Or.. you could build a city right next to the NW. Building a citadel will not reach the NW when you try to steal the land with a ggen.

 

[Bad Wolf]

I love Spain, they're one of the best civs in the game, IF you start near a natural wonder. It seems 90% of the time I roll them though, I never start anywhere near a natural wonder. (Then when I reload as another civ, I start right next to at least one, usually more. Of course.)

 

[headcase]

Natural wonders should provide tourism (after a tech maybe)... That they don't is one of those bizarre things in the game (along with the fact that Archaeology doesn't require Mining, etc).

They do, but only after the culture-for-NWs UN resolution is passed, and only after building stuff in the "hotel" line (hotel, airport, national visitor whatever).

Probably it would be good for them to provide culture (and take away the other yields, besides faith) with a certain tech, even without the UN resolution.

 

[Vitruvius]

Even if there are no natural wonders around your cap, I can *always* be the first to find one and get 500 gold in the first 20 turns. That means a instant settler, which I can choose to settle next to the wonder or just about anywhere. This alone is able to give you a huge edge, even if the UA doesn't do anything for the rest of the game.

You need to be willing to explore, carpet style. Cover every inch of ground, especially near the coast (finding reef = 2x500). I once settled a reef by turn 90, half way around the map on the other end of pangea, I rushed optics to get there. I later lost that city but a couple hundred turns of reef is more than enough.