Spanish Civil War Suggestions

[Tboy]

First of all, I'd like to say this is an especially well done part of the mod, and allows for a sort of 'proxy war' situation.

However, I have a suggestion to make: since historically the Nationalists were supported by troops from Italy and Germany, and the Republicans by a variety of other nations (including the Soviet Union), would it be possible to program the appropriate AIs to gift troops to each of the sides? It's possible for the player to do this by way of landing craft, although a system which didn't require the loss of landing craft would be preferable (though not necessary).

Anyhow, keep up the good work!

 

[VeteranLurker]

Would it be possible to make this into a quest? E.g., "Gift X units to [appropriate faction] by Year Y, receive Z as gift". What is the payoff? For Historic or Random Mode it has to be something simple. Maybe cash? Maybe tech boost? (and maybe a sliding scale: 1 unit = 1 bonus, 2 units = increased bonuses, limit of x units/x bonuses.) For Open Mode, it could involve improved relations with other countries sharing your 'religion', much-improved relations with Spanish faction (and much-worse relations with their opponent).

 

[boxNJ]

Beta check fortnight 1941

 

[Chamboozer]

I agree. You should get open borders with the appropriate faction for your nation to support. That way you can gift units to them easily, and you get the added bonus of using their land for air and sea bases during WWII, that should be reason enough to support them. For example, Germany helps Nationalist Iberia win the war, so he can now walk troops to Gibraltar, instead of having to use boats. He also gets a good base for air attacks on France. Soviet Union can use it for airbases to attack germany if Republicans win.

 

[Joe Harker]

. For example, Germany helps Nationalist Iberia win the war, so he can now walk troops to Gibraltar, instead of having to use boats. He also gets a good base for air attacks on France.

But Germany never did because the Spainish government tried to stay as neutral as possible, Hitler tried to get Spain to agree to invade Gilbrater but couldn't persude them. While i agree with the idea of being able to gift or help one side i don't agree that it should be through using open borders.

 

[Tboy]

But Germany never did because the Spainish government tried to stay as neutral as possible, Hitler tried to get Spain to agree to invade Gilbrater but couldn't persude them. While i agree with the idea of being able to gift or help one side i don't agree that it should be through using open borders.

Actually, you already can donate troops, but it involves using a landing craft (or an aircraft carrier for aircraft). My main point is not so much to create new mechanisms to donate troops, but rather to encourage the AI to do so.

Another point here, possibly an event simulating the International Brigades? i.e. the Republicans get some bonus troops soon after the war starts from volunteers.

 

[VeteranLurker]

The options for the quest in the Historical and Random modes should be very limited, since the reality was that other countries did not have a huge impact on the Spanish Civil War at least in CIV terms.

However, for Open Mode, it should be more variable. It can still be quest-like, but say with a hierarchical scale of gifts/possible-rewards. In that sense, if Germany did/offered a great deal more (e.g., more than they did historically), then perhaps Spain might allow open borders or might even join the Axis. Obviously the Allies also have the ability to turn things in their favor also. But in both cases the outcome should be partially random so that there is increased risk at the high-reward end of the spectrum (e.g., gift X units, gift oil, gift Y cash, Spain still might not do everything that you want). Perhaps it builds in stepwise fashion: e.g., gift X units, randomly Spain decides not to do anything to help you; gift another X units a few turns later, Spain is more likely to do the first-level thing to help you, but until they do the first-level help they won't give you the upper-level helps like open borders or permanent alliance.

 

[Chamboozer]

The options for the quest in the Historical and Random modes should be very limited, since the reality was that other countries did not have a huge impact on the Spanish Civil War at least in CIV terms.

However, for Open Mode, it should be more variable. It can still be quest-like, but say with a hierarchical scale of gifts/possible-rewards. In that sense, if Germany did/offered a great deal more (e.g., more than they did historically), then perhaps Spain might allow open borders or might even join the Axis. Obviously the Allies also have the ability to turn things in their favor also. But in both cases the outcome should be partially random so that there is increased risk at the high-reward end of the spectrum (e.g., gift X units, gift oil, gift Y cash, Spain still might not do everything that you want). Perhaps it builds in stepwise fashion: e.g., gift X units, randomly Spain decides not to do anything to help you; gift another X units a few turns later, Spain is more likely to do the first-level thing to help you, but until they do the first-level help they won't give you the upper-level helps like open borders or permanent alliance.

I agree. The only issue is that the SCW doesnt happen in Open Play (I really think it should.)

 

[Dale]

I agree. The only issue is that the SCW doesnt happen in Open Play (I really think it should.)

Why? .

 

[Chamboozer]

Becuase no matter what happened, the SCW was going to occur. IMO If Open Play really is the best gametype for What If... events, it needs to be historically accurate up to the starting date, or it negates the whole purpose.

 

[Tboy]

Becuase no matter what happened, the SCW was going to occur. IMO If Open Play really is the best gametype for What If... events, it needs to be historically accurate up to the starting date, or it negates the whole purpose.

Not necessarily. A lone Moroccan nationalist might have assassinated Franco, thus removing the necessary spark to set off the tension.

 

[Chamboozer]

The civil war was sparked by the Nationalists proclaiming that Azana and the republicans had cheated into their positions of power, although tensions had been rising since the 1934 rebellion in morocco, of which Franco fought against.

 

[VeteranLurker]

As I think I said elsewhere, I think a fourth mode is needed: Historical, Random, Open and What-If (or whatever you want to call it). Open Mode is just the usual CIV free-for-all using WWII-era units (e.g., Mexico can attack Canada, Germany and UK can ally against Sweden because the Swedes are "plotting against us all", etc.).

The What-If scenario would need to adjust diplomatic relations and penalties somewhat, and/or have some hard-coded and/or very-strong alliances/trade-networks to make it work. E.G., elsewhere, people have suggested Germany starting with better diplomatic standing with Democratic countries because of fear of communism. So, hard-code the UK/Australia/Canada alliance. Hard-code the Italy/Germany alliance (but the alliance with Japan needs to be worked at?). Make USSR/Finland start with hostile relationship. Give Poland/UK/France a defensive pact (which allows them to break it if they so choose?). Maybe the culture slider should be effective once again so that borders might fluctuate.

THe rest of the What-If Mode would be more speculative and hence out of my realm. E.g., how to include the Spanish Civil War? Depending on how other countries influence things, maybe it is triggered or maybe it doesn't happen at all. I wonder if there are other areas of the globe that were almost-ripe for civil war, but which did not happen (Palestine and India come to mind, only because I know they had their revolutionary period following WWII; perhaps there are others).

THe other angle on this would be espionage/diplomacy/propaganda: can you use spies/propaganda and diplomatic entreaties to get a country to fall into civil war? Can you use spies/propaganda to make some portion of a large empire fall into civil war -- colonies in Africa for example. Certainly, large garrisons, happiness-bldgs, etc. would counter this. (Sounds like the final stage should be an espionage mission: 'incite civil war?', spend the espionage-points/cash, then check to see if each city of that civ on that continent revolts or not over the course of X turns, with liklihood increasing if the initial rebellion is not squelched; regardless, at least some few partisan/guerrilla/barbarian type units are spawned -- I say 'on that continent' so that it isn't possible to fracture say the entire UK empire, just part of it -- say India or Africa or Middle East).

Now, this also seems potentially contradictory and that is where lots of work is needed to balance things and make it dynamic. What I don't want to see is Mexico DoW on Canada in Jan 1936 just because it is free-for-all. What I would like the possibility of is Mexico joining the Axis, IF the Axis countries spend time/resources to convince them (and the Allies similarly neglect/abuse them). And, as mentioned elsewhere, there could be various levels of alliance, which could be easier to reach with some countries than with others: trade-only, cut trade with opposition, open borders only, full alliance (e.g., Sweden allying with Germany is relatively more likely than Sweden allying with either China civ; some of this presumably is proximity as well as prior history).

 

[Chamboozer]

As I think I said elsewhere, I think a fourth mode is needed: Historical, Random, Open and What-If (or whatever you want to call it). Open Mode is just the usual CIV free-for-all using WWII-era units (e.g., Mexico can attack Canada, Germany and UK can ally against Sweden because the Swedes are "plotting against us all", etc.).

The What-If scenario would need to adjust diplomatic relations and penalties somewhat, and/or have some hard-coded and/or very-strong alliances/trade-networks to make it work. E.G., elsewhere, people have suggested Germany starting with better diplomatic standing with Democratic countries because of fear of communism. So, hard-code the UK/Australia/Canada alliance. Hard-code the Italy/Germany alliance (but the alliance with Japan needs to be worked at?). Make USSR/Finland start with hostile relationship. Give Poland/UK/France a defensive pact (which allows them to break it if they so choose?). Maybe the culture slider should be effective once again so that borders might fluctuate.

THe rest of the What-If Mode would be more speculative and hence out of my realm. E.g., how to include the Spanish Civil War? Depending on how other countries influence things, maybe it is triggered or maybe it doesn't happen at all. I wonder if there are other areas of the globe that were almost-ripe for civil war, but which did not happen (Palestine and India come to mind, only because I know they had their revolutionary period following WWII; perhaps there are others).

THe other angle on this would be espionage/diplomacy/propaganda: can you use spies/propaganda and diplomatic entreaties to get a country to fall into civil war? Can you use spies/propaganda to make some portion of a large empire fall into civil war -- colonies in Africa for example. Certainly, large garrisons, happiness-bldgs, etc. would counter this. (Sounds like the final stage should be an espionage mission: 'incite civil war?', spend the espionage-points/cash, then check to see if each city of that civ on that continent revolts or not over the course of X turns, with liklihood increasing if the initial rebellion is not squelched; regardless, at least some few partisan/guerrilla/barbarian type units are spawned -- I say 'on that continent' so that it isn't possible to fracture say the entire UK empire, just part of it -- say India or Africa or Middle East).

Now, this also seems potentially contradictory and that is where lots of work is needed to balance things and make it dynamic. What I don't want to see is Mexico DoW on Canada in Jan 1936 just because it is free-for-all. What I would like the possibility of is Mexico joining the Axis, IF the Axis countries spend time/resources to convince them (and the Allies similarly neglect/abuse them). And, as mentioned elsewhere, there could be various levels of alliance, which could be easier to reach with some countries than with others: trade-only, cut trade with opposition, open borders only, full alliance (e.g., Sweden allying with Germany is relatively more likely than Sweden allying with either China civ; some of this presumably is proximity as well as prior history).

Thats nearly exactly what I'm getting at, but couldn't find the words to explain it properly. Thanks.

 

[notque]

1. Gifting troops and resources DID have a huge impact on the Spanish Civil War. The U.S. diverted oil shipments to Franco for one.

2. I have the basic mod, and I only see Franco. Does another version of this mod allow me to play as the Anarchists?

I'm reading the information I can find, and have yet to see this.

Thanks.

 

[notque]

Also, since the Anarchists lost because of lack of weapons, is there any weapons trading? The Anarchists lost because everyone in the world abandoned them regardless of the side they were on, and assisted Franco.

There has to be a way to redo this and convince someone to send weapons sooner.

Thanks.

 

[Chamboozer]

Also, since the Anarchists lost because of lack of weapons, is there any weapons trading? The Anarchists lost because everyone in the world abandoned them regardless of the side they were on, and assisted Franco.

There has to be a way to redo this and convince someone to send weapons sooner.

Thanks.

Not Russia or Mexico.

In newer versions of the mod, Spain begins as Republican Spain, and after an event in Historical mode, a lot of cities turn Nationalist, leaving you (if you chose Azana) to fight them off.

There's no real way to "convince" the AI to send you units, but oil trades are still possible.

 

[notque]

Not Russia or Mexico.

In newer versions of the mod, Spain begins as Republican Spain, and after an event in Historical mode, a lot of cities turn Nationalist, leaving you (if you chose Azana) to fight them off.

There's no real way to "convince" the AI to send you units, but oil trades are still possible.

Russia's first shipment of weapons was .. canned milk I believe. I can't remember exactly the item, but it wasn't weapons. A huge let down, and their long waiting for sending actual weapons was a huge burden.

France was going to support them before they ever asked for help from Russia. England convinced them to stay "neutral" which was total BS.

"In July, 1936, José Giral, the prime minister of the Popular Front government in Spain, requested aid from France. The prime minister, Leon Blum, agreed to send aircraft and artillery. However, after coming under pressure from Stanley Baldwin and Anthony Eden in Britain, and more right-wing members of his own cabinet, he changed his mind.

Baldwin and Blum now called for all countries in Europe not to intervene in the Spanish Civil War. In September 1936 a Non-Intervention Agreement was drawn-up and signed by 27 countries including Germany, Britain, France, the Soviet Union and Italy.

Benito Mussolini continued to give aid to General Francisco Franco and his Nationalist forces and during the first three months of the Nonintervention Agreement sent 90 Italian aircraft and refitted the cruiser Canaris, the largest ship in the Nationalists' fleet.

On 28th November the Italian government signed a secret treaty with the Spanish Nationalists. In return for military aid, the Nationalist agreed to allow Italy to establish bases in Spain in the case of a conflict with France. Over the next three months Mussolini sent to Spain 130 aircraft, 2,500 tons of bombs, 500 cannons, 700 mortars, 12,000 machine-guns, 50 whippet tanks and 3,800 motor vehicles.

Adolf Hitler also continued to give aid to General Francisco Franco and his Nationalist forces but attempted to disguise this by sending the men, planes, tanks, and munitions via Portugal. He also gave permission for the formation of the Condor Legion. The initial force consisted a Bomber Group of three squadrons of Ju-52 bombers; a Fighter Group with three squadrons of He-51 fighters; a Reconnaissance Group with two squadrons of He-99 and He-70 reconnaissance bombers; and a Seaplane Squadron of He-59 and He-60 floatplanes.

The Condor Legion, under the command of General Hugo Sperrle, was an autonomous unit responsible only to Franco. The legion would eventually total nearly 12,000 men. Sperrle demanded higher performance aircraft from Germany and he eventually received the Heinkel He111, Junkers Stuka and the Messerschmitt Bf109. It participated in all the major engagements including Brunete, Teruel, Aragon and Ebro.

The Communist Party, that had originally supported the Popular Front government in France, now organized demonstrations against Blum's policy of non-intervention. With the left-wing in open revolt against the government and a growing economic crisis, Blum decided to resign on 22nd June.

Maurice Thorez, the leader of the Communist Party in France, began to arrange the recruitment of soldiers to fight in the International Brigades for the Popular Front in Spain. The first group of volunteers left Toulouse on 29th July. The main recruitment centre was in Paris and from there they travelled by train to Perpignan. After spending the night in the town they were driven in trucks into Spain. Others went by sea via Marseilles.

The French supplied more men to fight with the Republican Army than any other country. Over 9,000 served, of whom some 3,000 were killed. It has been estimated that around half of all those who went were members of the Communist Party. The most prominent volunteer was André Malraux who organized a Republican air squadron."

Interestingly enough, I have about 10 books/pamplets on the spanish civil war next to me. Just got a book shipment in for my reading lists. Durruti is behind me on my shelf by Abel Paz.

 

[notque]

Fun link, aircraft that didn't participate in the Spanish civil war, and why.

http://www.zi.ku.dk/personal/drnash/model/Spain/didnt.html

There's also a link for aircraft that did. Excellent resource.

 

[Chamboozer]

I thought the Russians did help the Republicans extensively, but tried to get as much out of it for themselves by selling their vehicles and weapons at extremely high prices.