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Spear line change: Free Formation I

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by pineappledan, Feb 4, 2020.

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Do you think Anti-Cavalry promotion should be changed for formation I?

  1. Yes

    10 vote(s)
    100.0%
  2. No

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    The spear line has a bit of a problem right now.
    Spears are currently 11:c5strength:CS and they have an anti-mounted promotion.
    Several people have reported that the raw CS makes them very good at tributing City-States, but isn't good enough to make them a decent unit for actual combat. In addition, their relative weakness brings down the whole Bronze Working tech, because they are the biggest feature.

    So, since the base CS of the spears seems to be doing their job, I have another proposal:
    Remove the Anti-mounted promotion from the entire melee unit line.
    Instead, give all Spear/Pike/Tercio/Riflemen units Formation I
    Change Formation I & II so that they give 33% vs mounted units (currently 25%), and +15% defense in open Terrain (currently +10%)
    • Currently, if a horseman attacks a spearman in open terrain, the spearman has +50% vs the horseman. With this change, a spearman defending from a horse in open would have +48% (33%+15%) vs a horseman.
    • Any spear line unit would have immediate access to Formation II, giving 66% vs mounted and +30% in open terrain at level 2. This mirrors the Sword line's access to Cover, making melee unitsmore mechanically consistent. With this addition, Spear line units would be more flexible; able to take a 3rd option to focus on their anti-cavalry role.
    • This gets rid of a specialized promotion that isn't accessible to units normally through XP, making the game more focused.
    • It enhances spearmen's defensive flavor, making defending with a spear wall more of a tactical priority. It also gives them a bit more chance against sword/longsword units, who have more raw CS
      • Spear and Pike would have 15% defense in open vs swords, so that's an effective defensive CS of 12.65 and 19.55 respectively.
    • This is also a great bit of flavor. Spears are most useful in open, even terrain where a proper phalanx can be formed. The opportunity for spears to be slightly stronger on defense with Formation II vs the 25% defense bonus in rough is a better reflection of how these weapons were used in history.

    For those of you unaware, I have been running a unit tweaks mod to test changes to the skirmisher and spearmen lines for a few months now. The feedback on my skirmisher changes have been mixed, but the feedback on how this changes the spearmen line has been almost unanimously positive.
     
    SupTo, Bromar1, vyyt and 2 others like this.
  2. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    I cast my vote for yes, but I want to enter my caveat that with the reduced Horseman strength as of late, I find that Spears really weaken Horsemen too much in my opinion, which would make access to Formation II too powerful. I should add that I've only found this the case with Spears and not the other units in the line - a natural 10 strength on them (for Horse strength comparison) would seem more reasonable.
     
  3. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    Would others say that this give Swords too many free Promotions as they upgrade to Tercio?
     
  4. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

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    You have a big issue with the terrain dependence of the current skirmishers. What's different with open terrain bonus in formation? That is purely a defensive bonus?
     
  5. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I've been using the tweaks mod for my last three games, and I'm a pretty big fan so far. It gives melee some more defensibility in the open which I find appealing. The formation bonus is not too weak +33% and not too strong at +66%....so I find myself debating between formation and shock for my general anti-unit melee guys...which has been a fun strategic puzzle.
     
  6. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    maybe horses could go back up to 14. That would weaken archers too, which is a popular sentiment right now. I would also reduce composite bow CS by 1, but these are all separate conversations.
    It would be the same number if free promotions as currently: 2. They would get formation instead of anti-mounted.

    the issue comes at riflemen. There is no industrial mounted melee unit and riflemen get their field works promotion which helps against cavalry. Personally, I think that formation could be dropped at that point, or rolled into field works somehow, but that’s another conversation. The formation bonuses vs mounted units effectively obsolete as mounted units are replaced with armor. Sword line units still get to keep their legacy cover, but now there's a modest +15% defense in open for legacy spear line units too.
    I do, yes. IMO, the skirmisher line should focus on movement, and rough terrain already halves their movement. Ta-daa! I think a +/-60% in open/rough on a unit that also has a promotion for ignoring terrain bonuses is a special brand of absurd. Formation is different is a few important ways:
    • It is a selectable promotion available to other melee units in the promotion line. It’s not a bespoke promotion for spears
    • It works WITH existing terrain bonuses, rather than overwriting them.
    • In total, formation I and II amount to 30% defense in open, on a unit that also gets 25% in rough. If anything, this makes the unit less dependent on terrain, because open/rough provide roughly the same defense.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2020
  7. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I hadn't read G's prospective changes to swordsmen before I released this thread. I figured only modest adjustments were needed, but now spears will need life support.

    RIP any civ that got saddled with this trash-tier base unit for their UU. They're in God's hands now.
     
  8. Heinz_Guderian

    Heinz_Guderian Chieftain

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    He did say it was a WIP, hopefully he reads the feedback and sees that most of the people on here doesn't agree with those changes.
     
  9. Omen of Peace

    Omen of Peace Prince

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    Formation I sounds good.
    Early access to Formation II will need testing.
     
  10. azum4roll

    azum4roll King

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    If early access to Formation II proves to be OP we can always change it so they all start with Formation II instead of I.
     

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