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Specialist buff idea - Bonuses for Virtue kickers

Discussion in 'CivBE - Ideas and Suggestions' started by Galgus, Aug 15, 2015.

  1. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

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    This is now a mod.

    Simply put, specialist yields would increase with specific kicker bonuses in the Virtue tree.

    Kicker bonuses are both horizontal, for having enough virtues in a level category, and vertical, for having enough virtues of the same type.

    Base yields would be upgraded to make them, well, usable.
    ____________________________________________________________________

    Grower - +3 Food. Gains +1 Food with each Prosperity kicker bonus.

    Scientist - +3 Science. Gains +1 Science with each Might kicker bonus.

    Artist - +4 Culture. Gains +2 Culture with each Knowledge kicker bonus.

    Engineer - +3 Production. Gains +1 Production with each Industry kicker bonus.

    Trader - +4 Energy. Gains +2 Energy with each Tier 1 synergy bonus.
    ____________________________________________________________________

    Might gets Scientists to emphasize its affinity level focus and keep it relevant for something other than a domination victory.
     
  2. GAGA Extrem

    GAGA Extrem Emperor

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    Negative energy seems like a bad idea. You are already giving up tile yields by employing a specialist, so that's usually a 2F penalty (1E in case of a river, another 1E from a potential Solar Collector). Plus you pay maintenance for the building itself.

    Assigning scientists to might does not change the fact that you will never pick it for a science victory and a base yield of 2S makes them utterly useless for everyone else.

    Adding a yield bonus to specialists via SPs, however, is an okay idea.
     
  3. legalizefreedom

    legalizefreedom Inefficiency Expert

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    Sure the specifics may need to be tweaked, but I really like the concept.

    Maybe Scientist wants to be with the Tiers and Trader wants to be with Might:undecide:
     
  4. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

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    I'll remove the energy costs for now, I was mostly worried they would be needed for balance.

    You make a good point that the building itself costs resources to produce and energy to maintain.
    ____________________________________________________________

    Might may not be ideal for a Contact victory, but its affinity point bonuses make it decently equipped to aid the others.

    Would 3 Science be balanced as a base yield for Scientists?

    I'll try it for now.

    Thematically I think Scientists fits Might slightly more than Traders, but I'd be willing to change it if it would make Might feel too mandatory.

    Partially I worry that Might is underutilized with many bonuses that are only really great for warmongers, so I was wanting to give it a strong specialist.
     
  5. legalizefreedom

    legalizefreedom Inefficiency Expert

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    Might being underutilized is a valid concern IMO, but I think science is too vital to be lumped with any one of the virtue themes besides might already has the alien kill bonus. You can always just make the energy value higher if you need to balance Might a bit. There are more tier kickers than other kickers though, so the science may be too high if doing it this way.

    Just my input, but I would think Scientist could be 2 +1 each (tier) kicker and Traders could be something like 4 +3 each (might) kicker. I would also think Artists could be 3 +2 each kicker.
     
  6. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

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    The Alien kill bonus is rather lonely in Might as a Virtue that helps with something other than war, though it isn't alone.

    I agree that Scientists may be too vital to be tied to a single Virtue tree, but I would really like to see Might be more general purpose.
    _____________________________________________

    I changed Traders to upgrade with each Tier 1 kicker - basically asking players to not specialize or go deep into other virtue trees to upgrade it.

    I think that may be a better way to do it, and it conveniently matches up with the three kicker system.
    ____________________________________________

    Currently the Artist and Trader base yields are +4 with the +2 scaling because I view them as weaker yields in terms of points to benefits.

    It's easy to glance over when Specialists are useless, but there aren't really many buildings that grant specialists, and they are often behind expensive tech or affinity walls.
     
  7. legalizefreedom

    legalizefreedom Inefficiency Expert

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    It can certainly be balanced that way, I'm just concerned that thematically it seems weird.
     
  8. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

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    I think putting Scientists into the Might-Tree is fine. That tree is mainly missing tools that allow it to transition into the midgame and extra yields from scientists would allow them to do exactly that, because it could work specialist slots instead of academies and save a lot of energy for further conquering. It still wouldn't help might form any peaceful strategies though (as might is missing tools to allow to build a big empire and working scientist slots would make that even worse, because you'd miss out on food from tiles).
     
  9. legalizefreedom

    legalizefreedom Inefficiency Expert

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    That seems reasonable though, since those pursuing peace will be spending very few virtues in might anyway. Self-fulfilling prophecy I guess.
     
  10. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

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    Oh, sure. Main reason for that comment was that many people seem to bring up the alien science as a good bonus to pick for peaceful play when it really isn't in my opinion, for the same reason that this bonus wouldn't be.
     
  11. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

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    I agree that Might would still be far worse at building tall and wide than the other Affinities, though it would help them keep up technologically and in affinity level.
     
  12. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

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  13. omniclast

    omniclast Prince

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    Good idea. Fixing two broken features with one upgrade :)

    My suggestions for the correspondence:
    Might = either Engineers (to help you build your army) or Traders (to help you pay for it)
    Prosperity = Growers
    Knowledge = Scientists (though the Academy buff would have to die, hopefully horribly)
    Industry = Engineers/Traders (whichever Might doesn't get)

    Then for Artists, make it get a bonus at the first T1 kicker, first T2 kicker, and first T3 kicker. So you get a culture boost if you're investing in virtues across trees and you're going to need extra culture to get deep -- sort of similar to the purpose the free virtue kickers serve now. Lore-wise, I'd thinking of it as a diverse society leading to more creative artists, or something.

    Also, I'd recommend reducing the vertical kicker requirements by 1 virtue each. As is, there are just too many crappy virtues for it to ever make sense to get all 15 in a single tree. Getting 12 is a mite more reasonable, I might be convinced to do that to get +5 scientists :)
     
  14. legalizefreedom

    legalizefreedom Inefficiency Expert

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    I will spend 3 virtues to pick it up anytime I'm planning on clearing the aliens no matter. Alien farms everywhere!
     
  15. legalizefreedom

    legalizefreedom Inefficiency Expert

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  16. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

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    The problem I have with these 3 virtues is that you don't really get what you usually want out of virtues. Virtues are "needed" for Health and Empire Development, and by picking up virtues that give Science, you're basically delaying the Virtue Progress in those two fields. A well-rounded empire will already produce the science you need by itself.

    I think the only exception I'd make to that personally is when I'm surrounded by alien nests and don't have a chance to build my empire anyway. :D

    @Galgus: Ah, glad you found a way, looks good to me! :) Had totally forgotten that that resource exists, even though I had used it myself less than a month ago. :rolleyes:
     
  17. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

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    That specialist change could work, but it doesn't feel quite as flavorful.

    Part of my goal was also to make investing in Might more worthwhile, and the investment feeling too costly seems like a problem with the crummy virtues rather than the kicker.

    As a side note, buildings with specialists start to look really sparse when specialists are actually useful.
    _______________________

    @Ryika

    It was only possible with a lot of help from Machiavelli in troubleshooting, a far better modder than me.
     
  18. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

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    Yes, I actually read the comments in his modding section. :) Glad that it worked out in the end!
     
  19. legalizefreedom

    legalizefreedom Inefficiency Expert

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    I don't usually need virtues for empire development, because you know, I build tile improvements besides academies :p

    Sorry for the derail, but I couldn't help myself.

    I'm more of a purity farms / biowell guy myself and yes I know I'm doing it wrong. :banana:
     
  20. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

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    I hope you repent before you die, because otherwise the Great Academy in the Sky will have its doors closed for you!
     

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