cabert said:
yes, but the odds to succesfully go for a CS slingshot are largely lower on emperor than on prince.
Did you see my comment that it is still possible to slingshot even w/o a GP-generating wonder or Oracle? All you have to do is assign a priest or two in one of your cities instead of scientists. Might take you a few turns longer and cost you a couple of beakers, but the slingshot is still possible, even on Emperor+. So, I don't buy that there's any "odds" to getting a slingshot or not. A player might play risky and try to get a slingshot faster (via Oracle), but you can play safer should you choose to do so, and thus eliminate the "odds" against you.
MrCynical said:
I've also no idea how Wodan would feel about playing at that high a level.
Frankly, I think it's a bad idea. It will put pressure on surviving and winning, rather than on testing the comparative situations.
In general, I think that a player gets a winning strategy. She either develops it herself, or reads about it. She refines it, gets better, and plays on higher and higher skill levels. Great, she's a "good player".
So what happens when she tries a new strategy on the high level? It's unrefined, and performs sub-par when compared to the tried-and-true one. She could drop in level and spend the hundreds of hours to refine that strategy, and at that point it might,
might, be possible to perform an effective comparison between the two at high skill level. But, even then, mere slight differences in the random outcome generator in the game can have a huge difference. She would have to play dozens or hundreds of games on multiple maps before she could have anything remotely resembling a good comparison.
So, here we are. Play on Emperor? Since I for one don't have the fortitude to play dozens or hundreds of games, two on each map, keeping careful logs and game saves, then I will vote against it.
Anyone who wants to play on Emperor is welcome to join the test. There's nothing wrong with having more than I and MrCynical doing it. We can have as many people as are willing to contribute their time and intellect.
cabert said:
do you need to win, for the test to be of enlightening value?
I don't think so. It's about tech pace and global comparison.
Win or lose isn't an issue IMHO.
Of course it is. How do you have a comparison if one or both of your games is dead?
Unless we just compare the early games. Our goal, however, is to compare as much as possible, even up to the modern era if we can. Almost all games on Emperor are either won or lost far before then.
cabert said:
I can tell you the test won't say anything to me if it's run at prince level. Prince level and emperor+ levels are 2 different worlds.
At prince i hardly ever notice the WFYBTA effect, and if i want to, i can avoid most of the tech trading.
On Emperor, the only way I know to stay in the tech race is trading, and you really need to beware of the trade limit.
So all this has a big effect on the Tech bulbing from specialists.
IMHO, SE has only marginal benefits on Prince, while it can be a lifesaver above emperor.
Nonsense. And I say that even though you're de-facto arguing in favor of SE.
The very comparison you
just did is proof that the results can be viewed in light of higher skill level. If you personally place more value on specialists and lightbulbing, then you can look at the results which say "CE is better during X. SE is better during Y." and skew them because of the power of lightbulbing.
In fact, it might be a good idea to do this in our new thread... please stick around and when we're done post your thoughts in this regard... I'd love to hear them.
UncleJJ said:
We are essentially testing the economic potential of the SE versus the CE and I expect that will not vary much with differing levels of game difficulty. However, other aspects of a higher difficulty (diplomatic, religous, and military) game could greatly influence the games and hence complicate interpretation of the results, as well as make it difficult for both the main players to gain consistent results with playing both a SE and a CE.
Since we are testing the economic potential (beakers, gold and hammer) of the CE and SE in controlled circumstances it is best to remove, or reduce the effect of, other variables. The Prince level therefore seems an ideal difficulty level to me.
Agreed.
As I mentioned, aspects which are different on another skill level, higher or lower, can be judged their effect when we do our post-test analysis.
The same is true of any other differences between games. We might as well complain about our decision to play on Standard size maps. Won't games on Huge maps have just as many (if not more) differences than playing on higher skill level? Heck, with the emphasis on empire size and conquest, I would think a Huge map would have
more of a difference than Emperor.
Regardless, this is all something for post-test analysis, no more, in my opinion.
Eqqman said:
It's interesting to have the hard numbers, but I don't see these numbers having any value if they weren't generated under the serious pressures of trying to win a game. It doesn't matter to me if method A gives me twice the output of method B if I'm left vulnerable and won't win the game. I think most of these SE/CE discussions focus too much on the math and not enough on how you get a quick victory.
In part, the answer to this will depend on your personal definition of "how you get a quick victory". If that's lightbulbing, or an early war, or what have you. For the most part, whatever your answer is, I think you could view the results in that light.
Part of me thinks you have a good point. This is basically the difference between "laboratory science" and "practical application". On the other hand, practical application is always based on lab science. Without the research, it's difficult to dive into the field and know what you're doing.
In addition, I think your very premise isn't realistic for us to tackle. For one, who's to say a "quick victory" is the goal of all games? That depends on the personal preference of the player, doesn't it? Also, who's to say a quick victory is a superior win to a slow, drawn-out victory? Many might say the latter is a truer test of staying power and skill.
Even if we agree on what's a "better" win, how do we agree on how
you achieve that victory? "You" not being you, Eqqman, but each and every one of us. Just because one person can achieve that "best" victory using a slingshot, doesn't mean another person can't achieve that same victory using faster tech research, while a third does it using tech trading.
We can't control all that, nor should we try. All we want to do is give some data which will enable each person to ask themselves, "ok, I am going to do X, what's the best way for
me to go about it?"
Wodan
ps Am working on the 1st post. Will have a draft to post here, later today.