Specialist Economy Q's.

Merkinball

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I have some Specialist Economy questions. I looked through the war academy for some info, but nothing jumped out at me. I have seen some screenshots of the power of the specialist economy, and have started dabbling more and more with it. I guess you could say, I'm running psuedo specialist economies, but I would like to do more with it.

I guess it seems to me, that a specialist economy cannot just be the outset. There must be a period of the game where you must concentrate purely on production, and engineers are just not plentiful enough to support such a thing. Are my assumptions correct? Must one transition from a production/cottage based economy into a specialist economy? If this is done, at what point is it done? Is there a tech benchmark? A population benchmark? Building benchmarks?

As I play my games, I really don't start transitioning specialist cities until biology. I really don't think there can be excessive benefit from specialists until this point. Is this assertion correct?

To those that run Specialist Economy's, what are someone interested in dabbling in it?
 
Biology? That is way, way, WAYYY too late. In fact, you should never really be transitioning from a cottage based economy to a specialist economy. If anything you might do the reverse around the time emancipation starts becoming a problem.

As for when you start, you start when you can build your first science specialists. This will generally come with writing, though libraries. It will be greatly furthered through caste system, opened by code of laws. The outset is in fact when a specialist economy is the most powerful. At this point in the game, a cottage economy is generally weaker.

The whole point is that you settle high-food areas. Floodplains or grassland by a river, any food resources. You need to be able to support your scientist specialists. Early great scientists are normally bulbed for precious early techs.
 
Are my assumptions correct? Must one transition from a production/cottage based economy into a specialist economy? If this is done, at what point is it done? Is there a tech benchmark? A population benchmark? Building benchmarks?

This is somewhat back to front. There is an argument for transitioning from a specialist economy to cottages (i.e. cottage over your farms) around the time you get Emancipation, but there's little point in doing the reverse. About the closest is capturing heavily pillaged land off the AI in the late game and running that area as specialists, simply because there isn't time for cottages to reach full potential.
 
The production problem isn't really an issue anymore since Caste System gives workshops a +1 bonus in BtS.

You should never ever get rid of hamlets and above for farms. It's not worth it at all to lose all the time put into it for farms.

I look generally think to switch to hybrid or CE when I can't lightbulb tech anymore with one GP. It also depends on terrain quite a bit. If there's lots of rivers, I start switching or building up new cities into CEs. But if there's only lakes and fresh water access, I go with farms still and keep at SE with workshops.
 
I've been fiddling with Specialist only cities in the new world. I've basically been trying to develop a cohesive idea as to how to fall into it.

Why do I say biology? Because these specialist cities, at least screen shots I've seen, have had wild population. It seems like an optimal scenario would be a highly populated city. My last game I used my national park city, had a forge, factory, industrial park, ironworks, had all kinds of population overflow and a full bar of engineers running, plus extra additional GP engineer's. Plus 3 scientists, four merchants, and four artists. It worked out quite splendidly.

It wouldn't have worked as well without the extra food from biology. Also, it seems like this type of economy works best AFTER constitution, or would wildly be hyped up with the Pyramids (Representation benefits this tons right?). Even still, you need a production city (unless you're doing one of those ridiculous gambits) to get the Pyramids.

You say "run a scientist from your library." Doesn't this hamper further growth? Wouldn't you want that extra farm to grow faster, get the pop overflow, and then optimally use it?

I will try this out in my next game. Should this be run in the capital?

What should be a good specialist to population ratio that I should look for? Such as...if I have a city pop at 10, how many scientists should I run?
 
Why do I say biology? Because these specialist cities, at least screen shots I've seen, have had wild population. It seems like an optimal scenario would be a highly populated city. My last game I used my national park city, had a forge, factory, industrial park, ironworks, had all kinds of population overflow and a full bar of engineers running, plus extra additional GP engineer's. Plus 3 scientists, four merchants, and four artists. It worked out quite splendidly.
You sound like you are coming at this with too much of a builder perspective. You don't need a perfectly developed city. All you need are food resources. A SE is particularly strong when combined with warfare because you can quickly turn newly captured cities, often not in perfect spots, into something beneficial to your empire. All you need is food, and farms don't take time to develop like cottages.

It wouldn't have worked as well without the extra food from biology. Also, it seems like this type of economy works best AFTER constitution, or would wildly be hyped up with the Pyramids (Representation benefits this tons right?).
Yes, the pyramids are quite huge. Getting them is very much recommended, though, depending on the situation, not always completely necessary. Capturing them is good too.

Even still, you need a production city (unless you're doing one of those ridiculous gambits) to get the Pyramids.
You will still likely have production cities. You just won't have cottaged cities, with the possible exception of your capitol.

You say "run a scientist from your library." Doesn't this hamper further growth? Wouldn't you want that extra farm to grow faster, get the pop overflow, and then optimally use it?
In this case, optimally using the population is the specialist. You only really need to grow as large as necessary to run the maximal number of specialists. This may and likely will be under your potential maximum population otherwise, since those specialists aren't generating food. The number of specialists you can run will be limited by the number of high food tiles you have, and potentially by your buildings if not running caste system.

I will try this out in my next game. Should this be run in the capital?
That depends on the strategy. Some people will cottage over the capitol, and run bureaucracy in order to generate wealth to sustain their cities. Others will make sure to have cities running merchant specialists, and build gold multipliers in those cities. Gold multiplier buildings in non-merchant cities aren't quite so useful, as those cities will be generating a trivial amount of commerce. You might still want things like grocers for health (more specialists) or banks to be able to build wall street in a merchant city. Science multiplier buildings can still potentially be useful in merchant cities if you are running representation, but they aren't crucial.

In general, you want to build as few buildings as necessary in your cities, so you are working specialists as long as possible. Ever touch the culture slider before? It can be a very powerful tool when combined with theaters (or even better, hippodromes) in a SE. Your research is not being generated by the science slider, so the happy boost from turning up the culture slider can allow you run more specialists without needing to worry about building hammer-expensive happy buildings.

What should be a good specialist to population ratio that I should look for? Such as...if I have a city pop at 10, how many scientists should I run?
You should be running as many as you have the food to support. Running specialists is the entire point of all but your production cities and potentially your capitol.

As for leaders, my favorites for a SE are Lincoln, Frederick, and Alexander. Lincoln and Freddy both have very good traits for a SE, but their unique building and unit come later than one would ideally like for running this sort of game. Alex has good traits, and his building and unit are much more ideally situated on the tech timeline. If you play with unrestricted leaders, the Byzantine civilization is quite good with Hippodromes and Cataphracts. The Roman and Sumarian buildings and units would be excellent as well.

Edit: In fact, I am giving you an assignment. Play as Alex, on a small or medium sized arboria map. This sort of map is nearly perfect for a specialist economy with hordes of clumped tasty deer resources, occasional seafood, lots of farmable land, and plenty of forests to chop for those important buildings.
 
I'm not too sure about this strategy, I'm still learning how to manage a Specialist Economy, expecially with a Philosophical leader.

I think that specialists should start working when Code Of Laws is discovered and Caste System is adopted.
Before that moment, terrains should be worked for research, with cottages.
After Caste System, food becomes the most important resources, so all I need is food, factories, irrigations, windmills, etc.
Of course, this requires some time to rework terrain, and Hagia Sofia could be useful for that purpose.
Anyway, I don't need hamlets anymore, because my specialists will do all the job.
 
A SE is particularly strong when combined with warfare because you can quickly turn newly captured cities, often not in perfect spots, into something beneficial to your empire. - Esgaro

THIS is eye opening. So far as...using captured cities for instant gratification via specialists. However, it seems as though if you're combining warfare with it, that you are basically concentrating on production in the homeland, and not scientists. And if you're running specialists in your homeland cities, early, then you are sacraficing the effectiveness of a war machine.

Typically, if I anticipate early war (aggressive neighbor) everything will be geared to take out my enemy, and as it becomes apparent that I will win, I will only then begin cottaging.

Capturing them is good too.

I like to play 18 player huge, terra map. Capturing wonders is a lot easier said than done. Especially if Ceasar and Asoka are on the opposite side of the continent.

Some people will cottage over the capitol, and run bureaucracy in order to generate wealth to sustain their cities.

That's me.

Ever touch the culture slider before? It can be a very powerful tool when combined with theaters (or even better, hippodromes) in a SE. Your research is not being generated by the science slider, so the happy boost from turning up the culture slider can allow you run more specialists without needing to worry about building hammer-expensive happy buildings. - Esgaro

Yup. I've played quite a bit with the culture slider in Vanilla where culture victories were my favorite. In my last couple games I've been dabbling with it some more. My last game I ran 30-40% culture most the game, and maybe captured 2 cities the whole game. I had 70% of my culture in a number of cities, but never seemed to flip any.

This is another aspect that I thought about which got me into wanting to dabble with a SE. Cranking up the culture bar.

The one thing I don't like about this, is how reliant it really is on food resources. You really need quite a bit in order for it to be of good use. The game I'm playing now, I got blessed with awful land, almost no resources (food, happy, or strategic), so it's been a rough go at it trying to get a handle on this.

My next game I'll try your scenario and let you know how it goes. My present game has been moving quite fast, and somehow I've avoided war.
 
@ merkinball - U said u saw screenshots of specialized economies...where did u find that from.Am also intrested in knowing the power of the specialised economies.

Say u wanna make an city for making a lott of money..Is a coastal city the best option with a few cottages. ??? Me a newb In CIV4 & BTW
 
However, it seems as though if you're combining warfare with it, that you are basically concentrating on production in the homeland, and not scientists. And if you're running specialists in your homeland cities, early, then you are sacraficing the effectiveness of a war machine.

Typically, if I anticipate early war (aggressive neighbor) everything will be geared to take out my enemy, and as it becomes apparent that I will win, I will only then begin cottaging.

I think that one of the big strengths of the SE is its flexibility. A city can instantly switch from farms and specialists for research to farms and mines for production. Or switch to fast growth and slavery for production. A CE isn't so flexible because it has cottages instead of farms, so it doesn't have the food surplus to work mines or whip often.

You should also specialize your heroic epic city for production, too.

Yup. I've played quite a bit with the culture slider in Vanilla where culture victories were my favorite. In my last couple games I've been dabbling with it some more. My last game I ran 30-40% culture most the game, and maybe captured 2 cities the whole game. I had 70% of my culture in a number of cities, but never seemed to flip any.

This is another aspect that I thought about which got me into wanting to dabble with a SE. Cranking up the culture bar.

The point of the culture slider is the happiness, not the culture. A SE does not have much commerce, so the culture slider produced little culture. But you do get the happiness at a cheaper price than a CE would. This is great for covering up war weariness, drafting unhappiness, or just growing your cities larger to run more specialists.

The one thing I don't like about this, is how reliant it really is on food resources. You really need quite a bit in order for it to be of good use. The game I'm playing now, I got blessed with awful land, almost no resources (food, happy, or strategic), so it's been a rough go at it trying to get a handle on this.

My next game I'll try your scenario and let you know how it goes. My present game has been moving quite fast, and somehow I've avoided war.

Found all your cities at food resources, and found a city at any food resource. Floodplains are good too, and irrigable grasslands are ok. You are right, food is extremely important.
 
i have never tried straight specialist economy, most of the time, i use a cottage-heavy economy and semi-hybrid.

i usually play emperor level, and i got a question. you guys want the high food yielding tiles, but what do you do with a flood plain in the beginning? do you cottage it or farm it? because it seems like you need to farm it for specialist economy, but on harder levels, you need gold so badly that you can't help but cottage it. do you mix cottage/farms on floodplains?
 
Found all your cities at food resources, and found a city at any food resource. Floodplains are good too, and irrigable grasslands are ok. You are right, food is extremely important. - nullspace

Easier said than done, there was nothing I could do this game. I have prolly...25-30 ocean tiles, yet no ocean food stuffs. I had one pig, one corn, and that was it so far as food goes. To the north I had barren tundra with absolutely no food, and to the south and to the east, a massive barren desert and Catherine. There simply hasn't been the food to support SE at any sort of potential (I assume). My whipping was disasterously hindered as well.


Another Q: What about Corp's? Even in my hampered state, with PHI trait, and running Pacifism (because I don't have the production to support an army, I'm surrounded by Catherine and Saladin who are my friends, and we have a defensive pact between the three of us), I've still gotten a LOT of scientists.

When the time came for corporations, I had to tone it down, and now...I need to go a long time without getting specialists because I've gotten so many before Emancipation. Do you guys save some specialists so you can found the corporation's of your choice?
 
I've usually run CE in my core territory (cities I found early) with the exception of my military production and GP farm cities. Typically, when I conquer enemy cities they already have a few towns and villages in the countryside, along with workshops, with I usually replace with new cottages -- they grow fairly quickly since I run Emancipation as soon as it's convenient.

I've never tried a CE or even a Hybrid economy before, and I'm thinking of trying this next game: make 6 of my 9 core cities cottage cities, 3 military unit factories (one of them will have a stable to the cavalry factory). Then for every city acquired after that I'll turn it into specialist city: following a ratio of 3:2:1:1 (Merchant:Scientist:Spy:Engineer) as the primary specialist for that city. The exception being, if I capture a city that's already surrounded by towns, I'll keep them and construct financial buildings within it.

Obviously, from the outset, I'll be running a pure CE, but at some point, depending on my rate of expansion, the amount of money generated from the merchants will overtake towns' contribution - hence I'll have more of SE than CE. Has anyone ever tried this approach? If so, can anyone offer advice about which leader or civs would have the best chance of pulling this off? Or anymore specialist related advice for said venture?
 
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