Specialist Economy series

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Nov 11, 2009
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Following the discussion in the SE for Beginners thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=197818), I'd like to ask for the possible support of a series aimed at learning the SE, for possible tips for such a series and if anyone who's experienced with this strategy is willing to lead the series.

Would there be enough people interested in a SE series? I know I would like to get better at this kind of strategy and that playing the same game as others helps a lot, but, how many others are interested?

If we do get this underway, how should we structure it? Should it be like the NC games, in which everyone plays individually, shows progress, asks for advice, or should it be more like the cookbook series in which everyone plays until certain waypoints and then stops and compares progress? (At least I think that's how the cookbooks go around here, I'm sorry if I've misunderstood)

As per "play the map, not a predetermined strategy", I assume we need the maps to be viable for SE.

Anyway, that's about it. If this won't get much support, I apologize for wasting your time. ;) If it does... oh goody! :D Maybe we can have some interesting fun games before we all start playing Civ 5.

Please offer your questions and ideas if you would like these games.
Thank you!
 
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Following the discussion in the SE for Beginners thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=197818), I'd like to ask for the possible support of a series aimed at learning the SE, for possible tips for such a series and if anyone who's experienced with this strategy is willing to lead the series.

On the last: abandon all hope if you aren't willing to drive it yourself. If you are? Lead, and turn around occasionally to see if anyone follows.

Would there be enough people interested in a SE series?

My guess is that I would follow it, and contribute commentary.

If we do get this underway, how should we structure it?

I think you are most likely to see the kinds of results you want if you take the ALC approach: Clear statement of objectives at the beginning of each game, 25 turns / round (assuming normal speed) with screenies and discussion between rounds.

As per "play the map, not a predetermined strategy", I assume we need the maps to be viable for SE.

I'd argue the other direction - try to force the peg into the hole, and learn/demonstrate what works and what doesn't. "All openings offer winning chances in amateur play." Translation: start at Noble.
 
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Hm... didn't think about making it like an ALC kind of thing. For me personally, ALC-style would definitely be the best way of improving in SE, but I don't know how much others could enjoy these if we went that route. I would rather more people play the games than just me and others offering ideas. It would feel more fair, I guess.

Thank you for your support and suggestions! :D
 

vranasm

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can I ask what is "ALC"? I would love to see how should be incorporated SE from the beginning of the empire. I generally am using cottages , but there is a big overlap with using specialists if you crash economy too much (if you are not fin or a lot of gold/gem around).
I watched some TMIT's let's plays, they are great and educational, but there sometimes is not enough information, more like general flow. The resolution (even HD 720p) is not good enough to read everything from screen.
 

TheMeInTeam

If A implies B...
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can I ask what is "ALC"? I would love to see how should be incorporated SE from the beginning of the empire. I generally am using cottages , but there is a big overlap with using specialists if you crash economy too much (if you are not fin or a lot of gold/gem around).
I watched some TMIT's let's plays, they are great and educational, but there sometimes is not enough information, more like general flow. The resolution (even HD 720p) is not good enough to read everything from screen.

Only my last 2 videos are legible in terms of beakers/turn and so forth, it was only then that I have been using recording software of sufficient quality and compressing it properly.

Using yt:crop for a 4:3 ratio I can even get the mao multiplayer ones looking good...as of about 5 minutes ago.

Anyway, I'll play games in this series most likely, but don't expect any lead roles outside of yourself OP, unless you get lucky.
 

DampRain

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OP should definitely be heading this :p.

Sidenotes:
Some WSE/SSE show cases by obsolete can be found on forum.
Futurehermit posted quite a few SE games as well.

As for peg in hole... Food -> run Specialists
No food -> production -> build wonders.
There is also rushing and then using that to win...

Small Q, still have use of cottages and be at 0% slider (after writing), to amass gold? Although it'd only be for one city really. (Bureau cap somewhere).

I'd definitely follow it, probably comment if someone doesn't beat me to it, and possibly even play :p.
 
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@vranasm
ALC - All Leaders Challenge - was a series of games played by Sisiutil, playing each leader, one at a time, with him starting in Monarch difficulty, I think, and going towards Immortal or Deity. In that series of games, he'd play a few turns, post a lot of screenshots and discuss ideas and outcomes with the others.

@turkis
To be honest, I don't care much for normal speed, and SE seems to be good with warring, and warring seems to be good with lower speeds. :) But the point is, if we make these similar to the NC games, anyone would play at the speed they chose, I guess.

As far as I am concerned, I will always post WB saves of the start, so anyone can choose their own speed and whatnot.

@DampRain
The cottage thingy is something I'd also like to handle better. In most of my attempts so far, I kept a cottage city, and I have unfortunately quit games in which I had no spot good for cottaging. The thing is, I know there have been some pretty successful games in SE with no cottages built, so, it's possible to ignore them altogether.
 

mrdoe

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Any spot with reasonable food and rivers with grasslands is good for CE.
If you didn't have a river or reasonable food, you would be missing what is needed for a SE, too, because there would be no place to put the necessary farms and you wouldn't have enough food to run specs.
 

DampRain

Prince
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Just because its possible to ignore them doesn't mean you should. I'd have to say that really is like crippling yourself ^^". Until unhappiness from (emanicipation, massive cities, defying UN votes to keep a civic) is a problem thats a lot of potential gold for either mass expansion or bribing diplomacy, trading, etc. missing out.

As for no good cottage spot. You don't require a massive 20 river tile grassland BFC, since most of your beakers is from specialists. All you need it is to cover your maintenance costs (particularly if you have a massive empire, or are warring extensively). Just pick a place with cottageable land and a food source. Or, rush to caste and use merchants.
 

Kadazzle

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I'd prefer it to not be like the cookbook games. Personally, I'd like the OP to give general guidelines of when to post updates (1AD, 1000AD/Liberalism, End Game) to make it so that people can go at their own pace, while still being able to look at spoilers of others' who are at the same spot/farther behind than you are (whilst obviously not giving anything away that they may not know yet). Also, posting only the WB save is a good idea as it then opens up the game to all different levels of players. Added to that, I know of many people who insist on playing slower speeds too. I also like the idea of forcing yourself to play a SE (<-- which really is a bad word, as most economies are mixed) no matter what the map is.

I think this is a good idea, and I know I'll try to contribute and play alongside people in this series.

Lastly, are we making it so that cottages are not allowed what so ever? I personally support the idea of no cottages.
 

turkis

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My thought was just on getting players in without a huge time commitment, although in that regard epic isn't too bad. As for tailoring a slower speed purely for the SE, I think that isn't really necessary either way you go.
 

Earthling

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I will be willing to play any games specifically NOT using a specialist economy and try to get better results. :smug:

But really, you'd need stone or industrious, and forests in every start so all players can be sure to get their Pyramids, (either that or play on Noble). Anyway, bring it on.
 

SillyGoat

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@CivilizedTiger

I'd be up for at least a shadow of a posted game. IIRC, you mentioned that you'd like to take Pericles for a spin. Fire up a game, post the WB and let the GPP fly. :D
 

vranasm

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Well I see here a lot of suggestions for opening such games, but how it will differ from "usual" games posted in Nobles Club etc.?

I think this should be more leader driven. People could post their saves for comparision, but leader should play all rounds showing where people should be at.

Starting difficulty could be noble/prince, but beware that at those levels AI techs slower and some usual trade baits don't shine that much and sometimes you are stuck with researching important techs yourself, because you eventually are too much before AIs and really need something.
 

Mutineer

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Well, as original promoter of food economy, I do not use term specialists economy, because where non cottage economy get it beakers is very map dependent.

If idea of serials is to learn how to convert food to where even one need, then I would advice to use variant, like I did.

You simple do not permit to own a single cottage in your empire. If you capture city with cottages, you must pillage them.

This will force participants to consider how else they can get there gold/research..
 
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@Kadazzle
@mutineer
No cottages would be something good to learn, it would really force a kind of thinking closer to this kind of game. Unfortunately, in every attempt of mine so far, enemy cottage cities were prime targets because I wanted their cottages. :) But I guess I'd want to avoid that at some time.

@Earthling
I don't want this as a show-down, but sure, cottage-shadow all you want, it would be good to compare results. In many of my attempts at a SE, I started to get discouraged at the time when my research was getting lower than the research I'd have with a CE. If I find a better way to SE, having a comparison in the other world is good.

@SillyGoat
I'm gonna keep Pericles for higher difficulties, since his traits offer cheap libraries and universities, faster GP and easy rex. :) (plus, UB offers a lot of happy faces)

@Zx Zero Zx
Yeah, hybrid sounds good, but a pure economy would be more challenging. In the end, someone good with more economies could easily combine them, I reckon.

@vranasm
Yeah, slower AI tech rates are a problem, but they only affect my preconceived ideas... my morale. :) (i.e. I've once quit a game because I didn't have Civil Service in 500CE, but I would try to compare myself to the AI rather than to preconceived waypoints (still... I've seen a game of Unconquered Sun's in which they had liberalism before 500ish CE, although there was also something special in that game at year 100CE, I've forgotten what, maybe even Lib so early?))

@mutineer
Could you please offer some links to threads in which you went with FE? Examples are always more than welcome. :D
 
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Yeah, I saw those in the guide, I thought there were some other things in there. It would be interesting to see the original talks on this economy. :)

Anyway, thanks! :D I'll have a look in those games.
 
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