Specialist Economy: Surviving the late game

Eastian

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I've been playing SE games for quite a while now (always in Prince) and I've been unable to sustain a tech lead during the modern times. It seems that after Scientific Method, my research gets really slow; plus, once somebody builds the UN and starts passing all those "anti-SE" resolutions (eg. Free Speech, Environmentalism, etc.), my research plummets. I'm guessing the only way to maintain a lead is to have the game practically won before the modern times, by having a massive empire through conquest.
Any ideas?
 
On Prince level, stop wasting your specialists with lightbulbing.

Make many great scientists, settle almost all in oxford city. Go to space.
 
Yes, settle them and go for space. After Dem. you can convert some of your cities to cottage´s citys.

Though if you got trouble i´ll recommend reading some of obsolete´s walkthroughs. They are all about SE / WE

By doing a search "walkthrough" you´ll find them fast...
 
Once you hit Democracy, switch to Emancipation and cottage up. The "Agrarian Age" is over at that point.

When you reach the Modern Age, burn some great people on a Golden Age or three. A Town under Universal Suffrage, Free Speech, and a Golden Age is monstrous.
 
I think the problem is more so with you SE. I can easily grab Scientific Method before anyone else grabs education and proceed to take Bio or Beyond from my free tech. If on Prince you don't have a huge tech lea by then, your doing something wrong.
 
I've been playing SE games for quite a while now (always in Prince) and I've been unable to sustain a tech lead during the modern times. It seems that after Scientific Method, my research gets really slow; plus, once somebody builds the UN and starts passing all those "anti-SE" resolutions (eg. Free Speech, Environmentalism, etc.), my research plummets. I'm guessing the only way to maintain a lead is to have the game practically won before the modern times, by having a massive empire through conquest.
Any ideas?

The SE definately has its uses, especially in the early game. It can be very powerful in getting you a lot of great people fairly quickly which can help jumpstart your Civ. It's also a great way to supplement early research when your economy isn't as strong and you're likely focusing on REXing and early wars.

By the mid-late game, the advantage of the SE starts to fade. Usually by this point, the heart of your Civ should be pretty well established. You should be able to conduct military operations without taking quite as big of a hit on your economy. The amount of great people you get will tend to fizzle at some point. There comes a time when you'll probably want to slowly start converting your econ into a CE.

By the late game, you're right - it's really hard for an SE to compete with a CE. It's still nice to have specialists supplement your needs in a given city, but I'd start relying on those powerhouse commerce cities that should be fully grown and productive by now for the majority of research.
 
Those are two questions you're asking, not one.

1. Is SE good enough to win peacefully (i.e. space) v the AIs?

2. Is SE better than CE in the late game?

On 1. the answer is "Yes". I've won space SE on all difficulty levels, and while running a sound economy is not all there is about winning on the high levels, I'm certain no mid-levels player ought to blame SE (or CE) for his troubles.

I think SE late game bad rap is more about SE being difficult to manage than SE being weak to win. I'm attaching a save of my first ever SE game on BtS Immortal: it's OK example of SE endgame peacemongering.
 

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I've been playing SE games for quite a while now (always in Prince) and I've been unable to sustain a tech lead during the modern times. It seems that after Scientific Method, my research gets really slow; plus, once somebody builds the UN and starts passing all those "anti-SE" resolutions (eg. Free Speech, Environmentalism, etc.), my research plummets. I'm guessing the only way to maintain a lead is to have the game practically won before the modern times, by having a massive empire through conquest.
Any ideas?


Remember that scientists under Representation--regardless of the slider-- give you more beakers than a non free speech town with the slider at 100%. Great Scientists (under rep) also give you more than a town under free speech. Considering you are rarely running a 100% science slider, a Caste System/Rep. government with lots of scientists can keep up with and/or beat a CE empire if you have the food to run an equivalent number of specialists. (Which means biology is a priority.) Your super science city alone can be cranking out above 400 beakers with all science multipliers and with NO settled great scientists if you have the food to support it... throw in a few great scientists and you've got one city providing a large chunk of your research. I usually find that around 1500 beakers per turn total can get the job done on monarch. Anything above that and you should be fine provided you are getting it early enough. 1000 is manageable if you are ahead enough.

And you can always have a few cottage cities around if you want, hybrid economies are great. In sum, the conventional wisdom that an SE peters out in the late game isn't necessarily true.
 
I've been playing SE games for quite a while now (always in Prince) and I've been unable to sustain a tech lead during the modern times. It seems that after Scientific Method, my research gets really slow; plus, once somebody builds the UN and starts passing all those "anti-SE" resolutions (eg. Free Speech, Environmentalism, etc.), my research plummets. I'm guessing the only way to maintain a lead is to have the game practically won before the modern times, by having a massive empire through conquest.
Any ideas?

1. Settle your Great people propably most of them in the capital, do not bulb. Exception maybe being Theology (apostolic palace) and philosophy (liberialism race & religion) & machinery (if you are in need for military).

2. Focus on getting the Pyramids, even if that is the only wonder you get early.

3. Get statue of Liberty

4. Delay scientific method and when you tech it prioritize biology.

5. In BTS you can defy resolutions or you can built The UN and propose what you want

6. In BTS get the Mausoleum wonder and get at least 3 Golden ages

7. In capital you can focus on production and build a lot of wonders there, put the national epic somewhere else and have at least 3 cities (including the one with national park) that produce more or less the same GP points per turn.

8. In Bts plan for the city with national park, leave at least 7-8 forest tiles. It is huge help at the end.
 
I'm winning on Emperor fairly often, and I mostly use Food/Specialist Economies that I turn into monster Production Economies at the time of Steam Power/Replaceable Parts/Biology. SE is very nice to get a good start, and I never seem to have any tech problem past Liberalism. My empire is usually big enough at this point to sustain twice as much beakers as any other AI without really trying (especially in BtS)

So, yes, the game is usually won before Liberalism. The idea I think with the SE or FE is that your cities will grow faster, and have a better production than with a CE. Big production means nice wonders, fully developped cities with the right buildings everywhere, big military, and overall, better productivity.

This was just a thought. I know I didn't realize before Emperor level how production is important, so I thought this could help.
 
I've been playing SE games for quite a while now (always in Prince) and I've been unable to sustain a tech lead during the modern times. It seems that after Scientific Method, my research gets really slow; plus, once somebody builds the UN and starts passing all those "anti-SE" resolutions (eg. Free Speech, Environmentalism, etc.), my research plummets. I'm guessing the only way to maintain a lead is to have the game practically won before the modern times, by having a massive empire through conquest.
Any ideas?

As many have said, lightbulbing is a waste of a Great Person until very late in the game. It's far better to settle your Great Scientists in your Oxford city, your Great Merchants and Prophets in your Wall Street City, your Great Engineers in your Ironworks city, etc...

Second, you should have the population to be in control of the UN. If you don't, you're not taking advantage of the SE's ability to conquor it's neighbors through warfare. You should've absorbed at least one of your neighbors. It takes two citizens, one a scientist under representation and one running a post-Biology farm, to equal the science output of one Free Speech town at 80%. So if you're going to maintain a rough parity with other Empires, you need to be at least twice as big as they are, in terms of worked tiles. Preferably three times their size.

Third, if you intend to use an SE late-game, you have to run a pure SE, since you can't use cottages to generate wealth. Thanks to Emancipation unhappiness and a huge population, you're going to have to run your culture slider very high, which means that very little commerce is going to be changed into gold.

Finally, the AIs have the advantage of tech trading with each other, which as tech leader you lack. As they catch up, you need to consider doing some tech trading as well.
 
The thing that some people haven't mentioned is that you actually have to compare TWO towns w/all the bonuses against ONE specialist + one farm to feed that specialist.

That imo is why CE > SE later in the game. Once PP and all the CE civics come online 1 specialist just cannot compete with two mature cottages.

That doesn't mean of course you can't win with a SE--you can. But I am convinced that SE > CE early game and CE > SE late game.

From that perspective I believe a transition economy to be the best, although it can be very difficult to implement. Basically, for a space race you want to be expanding your empire early, which means a lot of production (whipped or hard) which cottages do not give you. You also want to be regrowing after whipping faster and once you settle down into a transition you want to grow to max size quickly. Later in the game you want to be at peace because late game wars can hurt your economy through WW, pillaging, loss of trade routes, etc. etc. etc. not to mention that supporting a huge late game army is costly as well (better if you can get by with good diplo). Once you are at peace you are better off working max commerce because as most people will tell you the space race is about tech and less about production.

Early game you also have the SE civics available (except representation in most cases and if you do get pyramids that is a bonus) whereas late game CE civics come online.

If you are going to run SE late you need to prioritize biology, constitution, and huge cities to run lots of specialists. Getting the food-based corps, esp sushi, is also probably a good idea.

Another thing about SE late is that in caste system that means you are going to be dealing with emancipation :( which of course is possible, but can be annoying and can at times require high investment in the culture slider (which can be ok, esp if going domination).

On prince level and below you should definitely be looking at settling instead of lightbulbing with your great people (some would argue settling is better in higher levels as well...i would say it is situational at higher levels). This is because you will be self-researching most of your tech because the ai techs slowly on lower levels (if the AI is outresearching you, you need to revisit your economic management).
 
The thing that some people haven't mentioned is that you actually have to compare TWO towns w/all the bonuses against ONE specialist + one farm to feed that specialist.
Not true, unless all your cities are happiness limited. Many, even most, of my cities will be tile limited in the late game. A few of my biggest cities will have happiness problems in a war (before Police State) but they're easy to solve without wasting a lot of commerce through the culture slider. In Slavery whip to a smaller size, with Caste System starve to a smaller size. I aim to work every good tile under my control. So in my games 90% of my farms will support a specialist and if I had a town there instead of the farm the city would just be one pop smaller (and give me a lower score). So I contend ONE farm and its specialist is set against ONE town, if you design your SE properly.

That imo is why CE > SE later in the game. Once PP and all the CE civics come online 1 specialist just cannot compete with two mature cottages.

That doesn't mean of course you can't win with a SE--you can. But I am convinced that SE > CE early game and CE > SE late game.
That's because you're making a false comparison and possibly don't run your SE properly or it could be you don't build your cities in the right places to take account of what will happen in the late game wrt happiness. Having more but smaller cities is the way to go with an SE in BtS rather than fewer larger cities. That lets you whip or draft more efficiently and lets you build more EP buildings which means more EPs for better spying.

Cities in a SE fall into two categories in the late game. Either they can produce another GP before the game ends, in which case take care of their GPP pool and they need special consideration; or as is the case with most cities they won't be able to make a GP so you can ignore that aspect and whip and/or draft and convert their farms to workshops or watermills.

From that perspective I believe a transition economy to be the best, although it can be very difficult to implement. Basically, for a space race you want to be expanding your empire early, which means a lot of production (whipped or hard) which cottages do not give you. You also want to be regrowing after whipping faster and once you settle down into a transition you want to grow to max size quickly. Later in the game you want to be at peace because late game wars can hurt your economy through WW, pillaging, loss of trade routes, etc. etc. etc. not to mention that supporting a huge late game army is costly as well (better if you can get by with good diplo). Once you are at peace you are better off working max commerce because as most people will tell you the space race is about tech and less about production.
Transition economies can work if you are going for a Space Race otherwise they just lower your score and slow you down. Sticking with SE and running it properly is often just as powerful as a CE in the late game although it depends on the map and opponents as well. WW needs to be managed by keeping wars short, keeping cities small and as a last resort using the cultural slider. That is until you get to research Fascism and then Police State lets you war indefinitely and a SE should do that against any of its CE rivals as they hate offensive wars (which increase their WW and they need US instead of Police State to keep their production up). An SE gets extra production by converting its farms to watermills and workshops and by drafting.

So Late Game (post Biology, Communism and Fascism) a SE is the ideal war machine. In peace you aim to use Representation, Nationhood, Slavery (or Caste System), State Property, (any religious civic or FR). To go to war just change to Police State as soon as the WW gets bad (or if you’ve already fought this opponent change before declaring ) and change the religious civic. If you want to use Corporations then use FM instead of State Property. The UN resolutions can be a problem for your preferred civics but you and your vassals and colonies should have a lot of votes and you can always defy the UN resolutions (at considerable unhappiness).

Early game you also have the SE civics available (except representation in most cases and if you do get pyramids that is a bonus) whereas late game CE civics come online.

If you are going to run SE late you need to prioritize biology, constitution, and huge cities to run lots of specialists. Getting the food-based corps, esp sushi, is also probably a good idea.
Fascism is the most important late game tech if you want to go to war.

Another thing about SE late is that in caste system that means you are going to be dealing with emancipation :( which of course is possible, but can be annoying and can at times require high investment in the culture slider (which can be ok, esp if going domination).
Emancipation is a pain but can be dealt with by whipping or starving and the small city strategy. Your few big cities, which are producing GPPs, need to invest in happiness infrastructure including multiple religions and temples and cathedrals or maybe Free Religion depending on what will give the best happiness / output. As a last resort you can always adopt Emacipation yourself until the happiness problems are solved but I hate doing that and considered I’ve failed in running my SE properly ;)
On prince level and below you should definitely be looking at settling instead of lightbulbing with your great people (some would argue settling is better in higher levels as well...i would say it is situational at higher levels). This is because you will be self-researching most of your tech because the ai techs slowly on lower levels (if the AI is outresearching you, you need to revisit your economic management).

In BtS you have Espionage to level the playing field in the late game, even if the AIs use a CE to research fast and trade among themselves. A SE can use the Espionage system much easier and more efficiently than a CE can. If you have more (but smaller) cities as I suggest and each of those has a courthouse, jail, intelligence agency and maybe a security bureau, you can run up to 7 spies per city. With Nationhood that’s 49.5 passive EPs from the buildings and each spy will give 9 EPs for 2 food. Most of your cities will be giving between 50 and 100 EPs per turn and that makes it easy to see what all your rivals are doing and what they’re researching and you can research other techs and steal the ones they’ve researched. You should never be behind in techs for more than a turn or two as long as you’ve got spies in your rival’s cities waiting for them to finish research.

To the OP: a SE shouldn't just be surviving in the late game it should be thriving :)
 
True, if you can get your cities to be large enough you can compare 1 specialist to 1 cottage. However, that of course requires health and happiness. In BtS health is also a major consideration later in the game.

And yes, fascism can help with WW problems, etc.

However, the way you have described the SE is in terms of continual warfare, which I am in total agreement with. But I was talking in pure economical terms and even if you are comparing 1 scientist w/ rep (6 beakers, 3gpp) against 1 town, which is I believe 7 commerce + 1 hammer assuming US/FS, the town is giving a much stronger output per pop. Now, assuming unlimited :) (possible with HR or other combined efforts) and health (much more difficult although can be combatted with surplus food) and thus unlimited pop the "per pop" part of the equation is not an issue and instead it is a total beakers scenario which I still believe towns give you a better output for later in the game as gp become much more expensive in terms of gpp. However, in many parts of the tech tree, you will not be operating with an unlimited :) (unless running HR) and health situation.

And there is the added dimension of golden ages which do help with gp, but late in the game I would say have a much stronger impact on CEs than SEs.

I don't want to be seen to be dissing the SE (heaven forbid!), and I believe it is superior for warmongering games (dom/conq wins), but in terms of pure economic output I don't believe it can match what a CE offers late game.
 
You missed my point. It is not that a SE has to get its cities enough happiness for a farm to be equal to a town but rather it should divide its tiles up among more cities so those cities can be smaller. Smaller cities are much easier to keep happy while drafting and are much better at resisting Emancipation (or motherland or Brothers and Sisters of the Faith) and WW (without Police State). They can be kept happy with less infrastructure too so that gives more hammers for other uses. Instead of having 20 big cities have 30 smaller ones working the same tiles.

That helps with the Health issues too. If you have a size 18 city it is hard to build a factory and coal plant and maintain health unless you build a lot of extra infrastructure (or run Environmentalism). A size 12 city has no such problems and can actually produce more hammers effectively than the size 18 taking account of the lower infrasructure requirements or running SP instead of Enviromentalism. Of course you should on average have 3 size 12 cities for every 2 size 18 as well so that's 50% more hammers and 50% more EPs from those tiles, in round terms.

If a city is not going to produce a GP its specialists will just be producing beakers, gold or EPs and it doesn't matter much how big the city is. Just be careful to choose the specialists to match the building multipliers for best effect. That is why concentrating on spies is particularly efficient in the late game as all newly acquired cities need build is the set of 4 EP buildings to make a major contribution to the overall war effort.

A SE is not simply limited to winning by means of war although it can easily use war to help it win in other ways. It can win a Space Race by parisitising its rivals research (through espionage) and then going to war to delay them as it builds the final parts of the Space Ship itself. A big fleet of carriers and submarines loaded with guided missiles makes a mess of the AI's towns and a host of Spies can sabotage other parts of its economy. A SE is extremely well suited to that late game strategy. Its own production of the spaceship parts is a breeze with workshops. Its espionage advantage means it knows what the AI is researching so it researches other techs and then steals the AI's tech ending up with both techs.

I think it is wrong to compare a SE with a CE on a tile by tile basis anyway and that is where your beliefs are going astray. As others have said in this thread a SE should be more active early in the game and acquire more tiles than a CE would or could (or even should). So it should have more cities conquered from the AI (and I advocate squeezing smaller cities in those areas if possible).

In general a SE will produce less research beakers than a CE would on a lower land area but it has a much higher hammer output and those hammers should be turned into armed forces and espionage buildings.
 
Well, I don't disagree with you on most of your points although if you are not running enough specialists in a city it will never generate a GP (or at least it will take much longer) so in your presentation you will have to rely on 1-2 gpfarms much sooner than if you are able to run many gp in each city (more gpp/turn).

In terms of raw beaker production, I see the argument for smaller cities although that is dictated to a certain extent by the available terrain.

I wouldn't say it is wrong to compare a SE with a CE on a tile by tile basis as tiles are a large part of what is contributing to your overall beakers, which of course is where the comparison does in fact lie (total beakers/turn).

It's true that a SE will produce more hammers (which is why I believe it is better suited to war, at least during the first 2/3 of the game), which in turn leads to a larger empire.

But either you continue that route toward domination or you start thinking about churning out beakers to go for space. It is the latter that I am talking about and the question there is how to generate the most beakers.

Of course you can delay your rivals via espionage and warfare while you build your spaceship more slowly, but if the goal is to win earlier then total beakers/turn has to be part of the equation here (a big part) and in my mind towns are going to go a long way here in comparsion to specialists.

And of course this comes after a couple years running a SE and believing it was superior through all phases of the game. Now after switching to a CE late game when going for space I just don't believe that a SE can compete in terms of beakers/turn. A town with the proper civics is simply churning out too many beakers/turn.
 
I actually don't agree with either one of you, though I'm only a Prince/Monarch player, so please take what I say with a grain of salt.

For the most part, I find Specialist Cities to be population intensive while Commerce Cities tend to be tile intensive. Thus, you can use your good BFCs on "good land" to generate obscene amounts of commerce under Free Speech, and yet maintain a substantial number of Specialist Cities with no more than a few tiles to their name, if that. The Food Corporations especially help out with this strategy, and it really helps to grow those Specialist Cities into great usefulness, even though they will only usually have a small tile footprint.

Environmentalism will certainly help the large Commerce or Production Cities deal with the pollution problems, but it'll also help out the Specialist Cities hanging on the fringes, working only a few Windmilled Hills for production and profit.

If you do go to war, a switch to Nationhood followed by voluminous Drafting (max 3 draft a turn) plus a switch in tile usage can easily grant you a mostly small-city Specialist Civ, while maintaining the possibility of switching back later for peace-purposes.

The real question, really, is how much money can you pump into Corporations to make 3 tiles into a mid-sized Specialist City, and is it profitable to do so? This makes it clear that the comparison is not a direct one. Neither pop-point to pop-point as futurehermit suggests, nor simply tile to tile as UncleJJ suggests, but a more complex issue.

The ability to switch Civics and which Civics to choose is vital in gauging which approach suits one in the moment, but with the exception of the growth rate of cities and Towns, SE and CE and hybrid Civ are mutable one to the other in the late game with comparable loss of benefits and weaknesses.

For example, UncleJJ suggests that in the late game, the ultimate power of Specialist Cities is that you can cram a lot more buildings into a smaller tile footprint than a set of Commerce Cities. Of course, you could also do the same with lots of 1 pop cities with the right buildings in the fringes of big Commerce Cities, using US to rush the various buildings, but without the Spy Specialists, it would hardly be worth it. Evidently, the population size and the native production of the Specialist City does matter in the economic exchange equation.

In fact, if you do use a Spy Economy in just such a way as UncleJJ suggests, you don't really need to go to war to forestall an enemy's spacebuilding attempts. You can simply sabotage his economy into hell by constantly formenting unhappiness in most of his key production cities.

Conversely, futurehermit attests that towns give you a better output late in the game with the right Civics, but the rigidity of the Civics required and the sheer city size problems entailed for the working of the tile-intensive Commerce Cities makes this a key weakness of a mainly-CE late game. Not only do you have problems with health and happiness, your ability to effectively wage late game wars is also curtailed because your happiness goes to hell in a handbasket right quick, and switching out from US and FS will have a rather severe impact on the production of those Towns just as you need them the most.

Let's not even talk about Drafting and enemy Town pillaging.

Early in the game I find the Specialist Economy to the hands down the winner, but as ever, I think that fluid Hybrid Economies with allowances made for possible type-switches are the preferred and superior approach.
 
One question I have: In my experience with SE, production s always horrible unless I'm running slavery. How do you balance production and food when running Caste System?
 
I've noticed that games where I run a specialist economy, I tend to get a massive boost in power right around the time when I can put that power to best use. This lets me get a big empire (1.5x to 2x the size of my AI opponents) and I can then finish the game quite nicely because of the power of my empire without having to worry as much about the quality of individual cities since
2 medium quality cities > 1 pretty good city and
2 very good cities > 1 outstanding city

...plus, I still have my few super cities (Iron Works city, Oxfordcity, Wall Street corp/religion city, super-military city or three).

I find that an empire with 10 excellent cities full of towns will do better than a specialist empire with 10 excellent cities full of specialists, but the specialist empire would probably have had 15-20 cities to compare to the cottage-empire.

It's important to validate your comparisons as apples-to-apples, but cottage economies are so very different than specialist economies that you can't compare them directly.
 
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