Specializing the non specific

[atreas]

In this game exactly those coppers came from nowhere when I can swear I wasn't working on any of these tiles - only chance to be mistaken is to happened to forget checking after a revolution (I constantly check it on pop changes). If that was the case, then I admit I forgot to take a shot at Lotto.

But still, after population reaches 10 I find working on mine tiles very logical, to avoid the very costly pop-rushes.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

This site is insane.

If you mow everything, and leave every tile unimproved (so ignoring the camp and pasture already pictured) you've got

14 commerce (city + 13 river tiles)
13 hammers (city + 4 hills + 4 pants)
and a food left over.

Better still: look carefully at the shape of the river. Two of the tiles are corners, and two are hills, but all of the other nine tiles can be watermilled.

Max commerce is easy - 19 cottages, and the extra food means one less health you need to dig up. You might screw around with mines and so forth along the way.

GPP Farm is still easy - Farm everything that's flat except the bananas (including the cow). Hills get mines.

Max production is a bit more fun. Mine all the hills, pasture the cows, temporarily camp the ivory, and watermill the rest (yes, even the bananas, which should probably get a planation first until the city is up to size). At size 14, you are pulling in 19 more hammers, 4 more commerce... with 9 more hammers to come with Replaceable Parts (losing the ivory camps), and another 4 with Railroads. Oh, and a surplus food.

That leaves 4 grassland plains tiles unworked, in addition to the rice (which can't be watermilled because it is on a river bend). Working a rice farm gives three surplus food, so including the surplus from above you can work four workshops for another +4 hammers (with eight more to come with guilds and chemistry).

So lets see, by era...

Ancient: well, you can mine one hill, and build 4 camps. It looks like there might be one or two tiles along the river you can farm to work the jungles. So you only get to work 3 or four production tiles... call it three. 9P/6C @ 5 pop. Rah

Classical: hooray for Ironworking. Three more mines, the cows, and the rice can be dug out and improved. You can also free up more food by clearing the jungle from the camps and bananas. There's enough food at that point to run all four mines, and the four workshops (temporarily located on the river for the commerce). 23P/13C @ pop 11, with an additional 1P/1C per pop available up to pop 15.

Medieval: Machinery comes in, so three workshops move, replaced by 5 watermills - but the camps are still better than the watermills, so those stay. Guilds, so workshop production goes up. 32P/17C @ pop 15, +2P/1C @ 16, +2P available for each pop up to 19.

Renaissance: Replaceable parts comes in, so the camps give way to the more productive watermills. Chemistry adds another boost to the workshops. 41P/13C @ pop 15, +3P/1C @ 16, +3P for each up to 19.

Industrial: Railroads, so +4 from the mines. Biology comes in, so that one farm we've got gives an extra food; as We are emphasizing hammers, that means a watermill gets ripped up for a workshop. Electricity comes in, so the 8 remaining watermills kick in another 16C. 58P/30C @ 19.

Or step into the magical world of State Property - I'm not going there, it makes my head hurt.

 

[Wodan]

For example (to note just one thing that can be debated) by working ALL THE TIME on the banana tile you get extra food earlier, and so eventually you happen to work EARLIER on many of these cottages (turning them into town) than with your strategy on starting first on the grassland river.

Actually I never said what I would start with... I was talking purely about the situation from once you have 10 pop and thereafter. Go back to the earlier msgs, the question was whether to build mines or cottages on the hills, and where do you switch your worked tiles when you get close to the happy limit.

You also misinterpreted another thing (or probably I wasn't clear enough). When I said "mine the hills" I didn't also mean "necessarily work on these tiles". Mining was just a temporary way to "try for a luck" - in some cases I have found Gems, Silver, or Gold in such cities and this is WAY better than wait for Towns (you get the cash immediately).

I don't play the lottery. Much better IMO to get the "sure thing".

If you want to calculate in the odds of getting a bonus resource, then it's been estimated at 1/10000/turn. Multiply that by the extra commerce you would have gotten, and be sure to subtract all the extra commerce you would be losing (from working the mines all that time).

Wodan

 

[atreas]

Actually I never said what I would start with... I was talking purely about the situation from once you have 10 pop and thereafter. Go back to the earlier msgs, the question was whether to build mines or cottages on the hills, and where do you switch your worked tiles when you get close to the happy limit.

Well, I looked at the previous messages (didn't have to do a lot of search, your comment was quoted) and guess what you did write

Personally, I'd take full advantage of the river and my first choice would be to work all 10 river tiles. Most likely the city will be able to support a few more peeps than that.

If you meant another thing than what I understood, you can see yourself that most probably it was not a problem of the reading. As for your other comments, I think you try too hard to prove yourself unmistaken - otherwise you wouldn't try so hard to convince me that I proposed to work on the mined hills when I wrote EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE (I still am under the impression that the luck element can strike even when you are not working on the tile, but maybe I am wrong).

But I really don't mean this personally - I try to exchange views just to speed up my "learning curve" and not to quarrel. I respect your view about the "too early Universal Suffrage", although you overlook the fact that this city will start working on the tiles practically quite late (due to the need for IW). That being said, and since this game ended in fact in 1500 with Conquest victory, (athough I don't know your playing style) you can understand yourself that Pyramids did not speed considerably an "early switch" - I switched just to speed up a bit Tanks to gain some more victory points, the game being won due to science (Pyramids with Representation) a long time ago.

To me it remains an open point the fact that when population grows above a level (I suggested 10) maybe working on a mined tile is more economical than poprushing (Universal Suffrage would be too early in this case, and there are not many forest around). I can easily prove that if to gain a pop point you would need x turns and your poprush gain is less or equal to x*3 hammers then you should better work on the mined hills (proof is easy: you can see easily that the lost money will come "with interest" (no lottary) in the immediate future, since you have won x foods so you will start working earlier on cottages on all subsequent pop grows.* But I wonder if anyone has found a better rule. (I also don't know whether game speed plays some role there - this one was on Marathon).

EDIT * Even easier in many cases: after the next pop grow you create a merchant and leave him for the turns you "gained" by the extra food. I don't think there is a way that a cottage (it can't be any better than that) can match a Merchant with Representation.

 

[Wodan]

If you meant another thing than what I understood, you can see yourself that most probably it was not a problem of the reading.

Agreed... I didn't write it very clearly. What I was saying (or trying to say) was "At the point where you're maxing your health/happiness and ready to reallocate citizens, what do you choose to work". My response was, "first, I choose the river tiles". Anyway, sorry for that.

To me it remains an open point the fact that when population grows above a level (I suggested 10) maybe working on a mined tile is more economical than poprushing (Universal Suffrage would be too early in this case, and there are not many forest around).

I definitely agree. When pop grows over 5, it's definitely better to stop poprushing if you have some source of hammers available.

I can easily prove that if to gain a pop point you would need x turns and your poprush gain is less or equal to x*3 hammers then you should better work on the mined hills (proof is easy: you can see easily that the lost money will come "with interest" (no lottary) in the immediate future, since you have won x foods so you will start working earlier on cottages on all subsequent pop grows.* But I wonder if anyone has found a better rule. (I also don't know whether game speed plays some role there - this one was on Marathon).

I don't disagree with anything you say. However, I'm much more interested in the choice between working a mine and working a cottage/town (and goldrushing).

Wodan