Split from If your country was in Civ4...

[SickCycle]

I dont see how you can say a government that participates in torture and kidnapping of foreigners that are held without trial, to not be even a little bit of a police state..

Haven't you heard of the Rendition program run by the CIA on bushes orders.. they tried to put members of CIA on trial in Italy during bush's visit just to make him look bad lol

They find people that they think have information they need, they come in and kidnap them then they fly them to a country where it's legal to torture like egypt and they conduct it there all legally, they then hold them if so desired in secret prisons around europe and prob the middle east to, I believe one was found in Romania?

You can't do that and claim your just, it isn't against Americans but still, they are doing it to people outside this country and that counts..

Better yet, maybe they need a new Civic just to describe america Democracy/Representation inside.. Police State/Authoritarian outside lmao.

People wonder why foreigners hate the United States, excuse me.. hate Americas foreign policy as everyone likes to so discreetly put it..

 

[TheAmerican]

I dont see how you can say a government that participates in torture and kidnapping of foreigners that are held without trial, to not be even a little bit of a police state..

Haven't you heard of the Rendition program run by the CIA on bushes orders.. they tried to put members of CIA on trial in Italy during bush's visit just to make him look bad lol

They find people that they think have information they need, they come in and kidnap them then they fly them to a country where it's legal to torture like egypt and they conduct it there all legally, they then hold them if so desired in secret prisons around europe and prob the middle east to, I believe one was found in Romania?

You can't do that and claim your just, it isn't against Americans but still, they are doing it to people outside this country and that counts..

Better yet, maybe they need a new Civic just to describe america Democracy/Representation inside.. Police State/Authoritarian outside lmao.

People wonder why foreigners hate the United States, excuse me.. hate Americas foreign policy as everyone likes to so discreetly put it..

I don't care what the moderators have to say, you're paranoid and don't have a grip on reality. Get a grip or stop posting here.

I wouldn't even mind the America bashing it was intelligent and well thought out, but it hardly ever is.

Moderator Action: If you don't start listening to what the moderators have to say, you are going to be the one that stops posting here. Warned for flaming.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[SickCycle]

How is that paranoid? That is a fact I'll give you a link to the program lol It has even been in the mainstream media..

Here it's even mainstream so you won't start crying that it's propaganda.

CIA Rendition: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/04/60minutes/main678155.shtml

Heres a link to more about the actual program at wikipedia

Wikipedia Rendition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition

 

[3 EMS]

You can't do that and claim your just, it isn't against Americans but still, they are doing it to people outside this country and that counts..

So how is this a police state action?

War maybe. Self defence maybe. Hostilities against foreign nationalities certainly but how does this make America a Police State?

This may not be just but niether was hijacking a plane full of people and crashing it into a building that was also full of people. Whilst wearing civilian clothes at that.

 

[karlkrlarsson]

I think this is an endless discussion. And there are other pages for it. Me and the American and several others have our views, while Sick Cycle and evil twin has theirs. They are all valid believes in my opinion. In the end we have all different experiences with the same ting. Those of us that has never suffered injustice in the US might see it as just, while those that has felt the sting of opression doesn't. How can an Iraqi love the US and believe it to be great after all that has happend? In all fairness I hope we can end this now, and continue our previous discussion.

KK

 

[flyingchicken]

If the U.S. was a true Police State, people like SickCycle won't stay alive for long.

 

[Fronx]

Useless crap first, main stuff after this:

3 EMC : "War maybe. Self defence maybe. Hostilities against foreign nationalities certainly but how does this make America a Police State?"

If you go back in this fine topic you could see that he gave 15% Police State for mentioned coutry. If you indeed didn't miss that, you then dislike that, OK, but he clearly gave his opinions and reasoning, as is the intention of this post.


TheAmerican : <all that useless nonsense above>

I ask kindly. Please, you should follow your own advice atleast for this post, as Mods apparenlty aren't interested.. You're the only one whom [in this post] has been unable to be on-topic. While you might dislike someones opinions, they have been purely on-topic, and posted their opinions as topic asks to. If that isn't OK, then this whole topic should be removed, not just the persons whoms opinion is inconvinient for someone.

Or should this forum be marked with 'Police State' civic in your opinion?
(wow, clever way to get back to the topic, wasn't it =)

And the main point:

America
Represenative - Universal sufferage implies everyone votes, and every vote counts. Convicts can't vote, and electoral college means that not every vote counts. still important to vote to win the electoral college but yeah.

Good point, I also think that Electoral College is a bit problematic for Universal Suffrage. But I can see how some people might disagree (Or most people do). Definition of US seems to be just that all get to vote, not about if every vote counts. (Weird).

I personally disagree about convicts, I would still mark a civ with US even if its convicts can't vote, if that is the only 'issue' against US..

 

[3 EMS]

i don't think the united states is a police state but i do see it making a transition away from civil liberties.

This seems to be a cyclical thing. To some extent American society fluctuates between conservative and more liberalism and tolerance.
In the past our Government has tried to overly dictate ethics and morals and has been met with a rebellious publice. Since no government can exist for long without popular support they eventually relent.

i'm an american and i love this country but it worries me.

This is something to watch. When Bush argued for the Patriot Act didn't he say something to the effect that any loss of civil liberties to the public would be small but was necessary for the added national security. If these added powers were only used against terrorist threats then this Act would be a great tool to aid the government in protecting us. Many people that have been prevented from boarding planes can attest to the fact that the governments ability to identify a terrorist is hardly infallible. Six years later were are still short some due process.

You should be worried. Police local and national are a necessary evil. Life would be terrible without them. They do protect us and our way of life. Most of them are well meaning but they can make mistakes. Some of them aren't so well meaning and just flat out abuse their power.

 

[Rex rgis of Ter]

It's not like every phone call is listened to. Every telephone tower (whatever it is called) has a tap on it thatflags certain words if repeated multiple times on a phone. I guess these words would be existing terror groups, etc. If your not a terrorist, it is almost minimal chance that you will be listened to. The patriot act is fine. I believe America is a picture of democracy. You can tell its not shifting, because of the media. Every day, my newspaper criticizees the government shamelessly. It still is running. America is an excellent nation.

 

[meatwad4289]

It's not like every phone call is listened to. Every telephone tower (whatever it is called) has a tap on it thatflags certain words if repeated multiple times on a phone. I guess these words would be existing terror groups, etc. If your not a terrorist, it is almost minimal chance that you will be listened to. The patriot act is fine. I believe America is a picture of democracy. You can tell its not shifting, because of the media. Every day, my newspaper criticizees the government shamelessly. It still is running. America is an excellent nation.

actually these taps and such have been there for a long time, always searchign for key words. Some of them are known keywords, some of them are names, ect. This has been the case since I believe the 60's, but I believe it was in more public areas, or where a President or another VIP would be visiting. I can't say that they did it in a large scale or a small scale, but I know they did it. The Patriot Act's wire tapping, only effects people making phone calls to suspected terrorist, and overseas. in which it is the same Machine taps in listens for the code words and when it hears it records the conversation, idk if it keeps a temporary recording of all conversations, then deletes them if its not a keyword, or what. Cause that suck if you said "I'm gonna fly to boston, I hope no one blows up plane 213 to boston at 7:03 PM tommorrow" and then the machine picks up at "Blows up plane 213 to boston at 7:03 PM tommorrow" lmao.

 

[Honos]

I'm thinking that most of you who say that the US is under a police state because of the Patriot Act, have never even been effected by it. I know I haven't and I live in the US. Hell, if it wasn't for TV and the news I'd never even know we were at war in Iraq or September 11th happened.

 

[Rex rgis of Ter]

I'm thinking that most of you who say that the US is under a police state because of the Patriot Act, have never even been effected by it. I know I haven't and I live in the US. Hell, if it wasn't for TV and the news I'd never even know we were at war in Iraq or September 11th happened.

Do you ever get out of the house? JK.

 

[Soduka]

This is something to watch. When Bush argued for the Patriot Act didn't he say something to the effect that any loss of civil liberties to the public would be small but was necessary for the added national security. If these added powers were only used against terrorist threats then this Act would be a great tool to aid the government in protecting us.

Many people that have been prevented from boarding planes can attest to the fact that the governments ability to identify a terrorist is hardly infallible. Six years later were are still short some due process.

Are you kidding? This quote from Benjamin Franklin/Civilization IV is perfect for this situation;

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

I believe in that and I bottom line HATE where the country is going in the past years. I completely agree with SickCycle in what he says, it is my opinion that the U.S IS on its way to a Police State if something doesn't change soon. You have to be politically blind to not see that every time Bush speaks Americans lose a little freedom. Everything is coming under attack and it won't be long until the big First Amendment comes under attack as well.

 

[3 EMS]

Are you kidding? This quote from Benjamin Franklin/Civilization IV is perfect for this situation;

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

I believe in that and I bottom line HATE where the country is going in the past years. I completely agree with SickCycle in what he says, it is my opinion that the U.S IS on its way to a Police State if something doesn't change soon. You have to be politically blind to not see that every time Bush speaks Americans lose a little freedom. Everything is coming under attack and it won't be long until the big First Amendment comes under attack as well.

Since you are so politicly aware, surely you can see that Bush and his buddies are already on their way out. Hopefully come election time we"ll regain some of our liberty and find another way to gain some security.

 

[meatwad4289]

Are you kidding? This quote from Benjamin Franklin/Civilization IV is perfect for this situation;

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

I believe in that and I bottom line HATE where the country is going in the past years. I completely agree with SickCycle in what he says, it is my opinion that the U.S IS on its way to a Police State if something doesn't change soon. You have to be politically blind to not see that every time Bush speaks Americans lose a little freedom. Everything is coming under attack and it won't be long until the big First Amendment comes under attack as well.

so if the president says... "You know what? I happen to like Popcorn, with extra butter" we lose freedoms? LAWL. You can believe what you want, but think of it this way, The Government has done everything the Bush Administration has done, except in prior generations it was secret, now everyone knows. I hate it when people complain and complain about Bush, but the only thing they ever say is "IRAQ" "IRAQ" "IRAQ" "PATRIOT ACT" "IRAQ" with the occasional "GAUNTAMINO" The guys done so much more than that. I mean, half the American Population worships JFK, but what did he really do? He escalated us into an inevitable war in Vietnam, knowing the next president would get blamed. But not a single person thinks about that. I can't blame Bush, because the Imperial Presidency is no longer, everything Bush did that is "questionable" was approved by Congress. So don't focus all the hate on one person, theres 100 Senators, and 435(think thats right) Represenatives, who are equally to blame for any faults during this Administration.


Edit: woops hit wrogn button lol

I'm just saying, If you got one bullet, don't shoot it at the wrong target, and don't miss.. Don't miss would mean, make sure you got your facts straight and don't hate them for the wrong reasons.
Also dont make the topic political. I know it's hard because your judging what nations would be civics are but, attacking a leader is pretty political.


Antartica:
Police State
Nationalism
Serfdom
State Property
Free Religion

lmao...

Edit: I was joking about that incase anyone didnt notice

 

[onedreamer]

So you're saying that we're a police state?

not just the USA but pretty much any Democratic Republic or Constitutional Monarchy in the world. Universal Suffrage is not a form of government IMO.

 

[DutchJob]

funny how people can think that they're free...

all we Westerners live in police states.

the americans have tortureprisons all over the world.

'my' Royal Dutch Shell takes care that any Nigerian opposing Shell pollution in Nigeria ends up dead.

no WMD in Iraq

lots of WMD in america

and the list goes on.

yet a lot of people here just keep on thinking "the West is the Best."

or: "Only in the West i can live life like how i want it to be" while going to their wage slave job.

 

[meatwad4289]

funny how people can think that they're free...

all we Westerners live in police states.

the americans have tortureprisons all over the world.

'my' Royal Dutch Shell takes care that any Nigerian opposing Shell pollution in Nigeria ends up dead.

no WMD in Iraq

lots of WMD in america

and the list goes on.

yet a lot of people here just keep on thinking "the West is the Best."

or: "Only in the West i can live life like how i want it to be" while going to their wage slave job.

WOW.... WTH? Torture Prisons all over the world? wow, Where? tell me please? and it would have to be more than one or two incidents to classify as torture prison, and none of those conspiracy websites count as a source, so I i see Aliens in Area 51, your DONE lol I need real sources.

Proof on Dutch Shell killing nigerians? I'm gonna say thats a CT, all I find when i google "Shell kills Nigerians" is Nigerians going on strike, and Nigerians killign eachother.

No WMD in Iraq? are you kidding me. What the news considers to be WMDs are Nuclear warheads, what is considered WMDs is biological and chemical weapons, both of which have been found in Iraq.

But does America use WMDs on it's own people? no. We built the WMDs and the only reason we keep building them is because everyone else is building them. Mutually Assured Destruction. The reason why we don't want these dictators to get WMDs is because the ones that have them like Saddam used chemical and biological weapons on his own people, if Iran gets nukes they will launch at isreal and Isreal will launch back and world war 3 will begin. We know Iran has WMDs but they dont have nukes yet, and I doubt theyll do anythign til they do.

So the West isn't the best? you seem like one of those people that hates western society... good for you, leave it. It's the best for all the people who like it, but if you dont liek it maybe you should go outside of the western influence.

Are you saying the west gets paid slave wages? because if you are then... your dumber than I thought. Slave wages are in Asia, the middle east, and africa. Even then what their paid is sufficient enough in most times to feed their family's. Sweatshops aren't as bad as people think, I mean they are bad, but when your family is starving, and your 12 years old dont you think your going to goto work? Sweatshops existed in England and America in the industrial period.

 

[rhawn]

No WMD in Iraq? are you kidding me. What the news considers to be WMDs are Nuclear warheads, what is considered WMDs is biological and chemical weapons, both of which have been found in Iraq.

Are you serious? There have been chemical and biological weapons found in Iraq?!?... I must have missed that episode of special report with Brit Humes...

 

[DutchJob]

hello meatwad4289,

you are utterly brainwashed.

how can you be so 'innocent' about our western intelligence agencies? there are special places for interro(r)gation in Hungary, Syria, Chili. But since they have no official website and are not reported by FoxNews you can say i'm gone. but is 'official' (state) Dutch news good enough?

google Ken Saro Wiwa please. he was a nigerian opposed to the pollution made by shell. dead already for a long time.

YOU show me any evidence of WMD owned by Saddam to legitimize your war against the people if Iraq. (a 150.000 plus have died since march 2003.) it wasn't i who wanted war because of WMD. give me some UN material on this.

you can always call rumsfeld of course.

furthermore, america was the FIRST country to use nuclear weapons. and it was tested bigtime above ground for decades. God knows what the damage in your country is.

why do you say Iran will nuke israel? where did you get THAT from?

dick cheney? the only country in de middle east who actually owns nuclear weapons: israel?

and last: i never said i hate the West. i love it probably more then you do since i dare to be critical to my own kind so that we may improve ourselves.

i have nothing against you. please understand that.

love all the way,

Michel