*Spoiler1* Gotm19-Ottomans - Green-Brown-Red

[hotrod0823]

@Lee you may want to snip your post too. No disscussion of Middle age free techs.

Anyway, I am at work and don't have all the details but up to the QSC period I had 9 cities and about the same number of workers. And spent some gold on a couple of "indentured" servants from the Celts. It is really amazing how taking there workers has really put them into the hole. I am very pleased to see the vast number of lux available and resources. I took note up to 1000BC and have a couple saves along the way I will review and post some shots later today.

Hotrod

Of note moved the worker to the south BG and saw the game forest. Wanted to make sure that tile stayed in the city radius so I didn't wast my warrior moving North so I sent him west to see if moving the Settler SW was a good idea. Saw the wheat and knew a move was in order.

 

[hotrod0823]

In my case my first move was the worker to the Bonus grass as it was the first tile I wanted worked. By seeing the game tile after the move of the worker I knew I wanted that tile in my city radius. That limited the SW move as the only move I was going to make and deciding that I was either going to stay put or move SW it only made sense to see what was to the West with the warrior and not look over the mountains. Had I not had an extra warrior I would not have moved the settler at all but by having my warrior take peak to the west I was able to see the wheat.

The key for me was moving the worker first before moving the warrior. IF I moved the warrior first I would've been inclinded to check the terriotory from the Mountains and would have never seen the wheat even if I moved the worker south.

It wasn't luck at all I had a reason for every move I made.

 

[hotrod0823]

Without having my notes on my settlement it is tough question but from what I remember from my game it appears that resources and lux are key factors. I had a celt pair walk all the way through my territory to the North Tundra to found a city and even after a quick war with them was over they sent another pair north. I believe that there must be something in that ice.

The other thing I noticed was the AI founding cities in the jungle towns without any workers on clearing the land. The celts were really hemmed in by jungle and could never get any growth what so ever.

Taking 2 slaves through purchases killed their growth even more. I didn't hurt either that they are fixated on wonders too. Entremont was building a pyramid but was completely under developed. Yes he did get the pyramid built, (lucky for me!) but he was wasting turns.

Not having too much contact with carthage I haven't looked too hard that their progression. Rome on the other hand had way too many units and left the entire top 1/3 of there island undeveloped. I was able to get 3 jungle cities built easily. He completely ignored the jungle, even the lux site.

I may have more to imput after I look over my notes.

Hotrod

[edit] I understand your concerns and agree that if you moved north or east with the warrior then moving southWest would be a gut shot or at the very least just a move to get less Mountains in the city radius. I think most that moved the warrior north or East to the mountains moved the settler S, or SE.

 

[hotrod0823]

Anyways, AI seems to be geared towards resource build locations.

I agree. Even to the extent of putting cities in terrible locations because of future resources !

 

[hotrod0823]

I have:
9 cities
319 gold
1 granary
3 baracks
2 temples

And 4 techs from the Middle ages.

 

[hotrod0823]

@Hurricane:

4 middle age techs by 1000 bc?

NO away from the Middle ages not into the middle ages.

Sorry for the mix up

 

[hotrod0823]

Romulus: This is a bit off topic and without straying into spoiler 2 land all I can say is use BSOF (Big o'l Stacks of Frigates). Use the bombard attack to redline the ship and attack with another frigate. This works with Ironclads and destroyers as well. Naval combat with Galleys well that just isn't fun.

 

[Jabah]

I don't want to start some hate/flame war BUT

I really like to know what was the reasons (except the obvious but not very fairplay one) for some people to move the settler SW and settle THERE next turn while their worker/warrior were exploring another area (ie. they 'discovered' the wheat to go with the game by pure 'luke' AFTER settling).

The only reason not to settle ASAP (in 4000BC) were (IMHO) if moving the warrior/worker on one of the mountain or the bonus grass and :
- you notice luxuary in your 21 titles (north)
- you wanted the game in your 9 titles (south or SE)

Even discovering the game, I still settle on the starting title and 'notice' the wheat just out of my 21 titles and thought what a pity I did not settle just 1 title SW, I guess some weaker minded player might not have resisted starting again knowing that.

I hope I am wrong ...

Jabah

 

[Jabah]

Originally posted by hotrod0823
In my case my first move was the worker to the Bonus grass as it was the first tile I wanted worked. By seeing the game tile after the move of the worker I knew I wanted that tile in my city radius. That limited the SW move as the only move I was going to make and deciding that I was either going to stay put or move SW it only made sense to see what was to the West with the warrior and not look over the mountains. Had I not had an extra warrior I would not have moved the settler at all but by having my warrior take peak to the west I was able to see the wheat.

The key for me was moving the worker first before moving the warrior. IF I moved the warrior first I would've been inclinded to check the terriotory from the Mountains and would have never seen the wheat even if I moved the worker south.

It wasn't luck at all I had a reason for every move I made.

I also moved (S) the worker first to the BG, noticed the game and decided i wanted that in my 21t radius, but instead of sending the warrior W (revealing the wheat - after that it is normal to move the settler, but some did move after sending the warrior somewhere else) I send the warrior on the E hill (since it will reveal lots of the east) to consider moving on OTHER side of the river, and since there was nothing of interest I settle there.

Your 'explaination' makes perfect senses (not like moving and delaying settling by 1 turn because you can gain 1 turn of worker action buy irrigating a plain instead of mining a grass - the number of river is borderline as the starting position has enough river until Sanitation).

Again, I was just wondering, not accusing anyone (even if I am still convinced that the tentation might have been to strong to a few).

Jabah

 

[Ribannah]

For reasons that cannot be revealed in this thread, I am only able to tell about the Green and the Brown.

We started exactly as announced, by moving the Worker south and Warrior the Hut to the west.

4000 BC

As you can see, this brought both the Game and the Wheat into view, so the location for Sogut was obvious (one step southwest).
Warrior the Hut then went south as the land seemed good in that direction, and the second strategic decision had to be made when we met the Celts in 3750 BC.

Apparently plagued by Barbarians, they had two Workers at home, and we chose these over their two techs.

3750 BC

Warrior the Hut continued south, past Entremont, and met the second rival on our continent: Carthage.

Meanwhile, the Slaves were hard at work, irrigating the Wheat and cutting a forest, and by the time Sogut expanded, it started to grow a lot faster. A Granary was completed, and in 2800 BC Iznik was founded. It immediately started on The Pyramids, profiting from the mined bonus grasslands that it shared with the capital, which didn't need all of them to produce Settlers in 4 turns or Workers in 2.

Sukudar followed and then Izmit, which allowed us to connect the Dyes in 2150 BC.

2150 BC

Next turn, the Ottowisemen discovered Mathematics and we traded for Writing (Carthage) and The Wheel (Celts). We started efforts towards Literature.

All seemed well, until the Carthagians sneak-attacked Izmit in 1870 BC! They lost their Warrior, and more units after that, giving us an elite Spearman. No Great Leader would come forward, but the extra happiness was nice while it lasted.

In 1500 BC Carthage had Map Making and an advantageous trade was made to celebrate the peace treaty, with the Celts throwing in Iron Working for good measure.

Sogut has Iron! In 1325 BC it was connected, and we started to build several Swordsmen, as we noticed that the Celts had not even started to hook up their Iron source. In fact, they never improved Entremont except for a road on one measly tile. That hadn't stopped them from trying for The Oracle in their capital though ....

In 1100 BC we discovered The Republic, but held off the revolution in favour of finishing The Pyramids, which happened two turns later.

1050 BC

Note that we didn't go for a maximum number of cities in the QSC timeframe. Instead, we concentrated on connecting the luxuries, boosting research. Now that The Pyramids are finished, we can easily catch up.

 

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by el_kalkylus
Ribannah,
Two workers in the beginning! I was checking each turn to see if I could buy workers but the uppertunity never came. Out of curiousity, when was The Pyramid finished for you?

In 1050 BC. I try to time it so that it falls within the QSC period.

They say good players get lucky. Gotm 16, settler out of a hut. Gotm 18, one archer captures two cities + you can buy 5 workers + get an incredible amount of great leaders. Gotm 19, buy 2 workers from the start. I didn't check gotm17.

You have to know how to increase your chances. If you don't send that Archer on the warpath or you don't go looking for an early contact, or don't make sure that you CAN get a Settler when you open a hut, or don't send that suicide galley - all the good fortune passes you by.

I've nonetheless also encountered my share of bad fortune. I'd gladly turn in all those later great leaders for a single one early on in just one gotm, as some people seem to get on a regular basis!

 

[Ribannah]

My last pic was of 1050 BC, with still two turns to go.

The difference is that I didn't build the Pyramids in the capital this time, that would indeed have been easy enough. I built them in Iznik, since the capital was needed as Settler factory.

BillChin, what did the Celts want for their two Workers in your game? I thought Cracker had the price equalized.

The two early Slaves are worth slightly less than half of what a Settler from the first hut would be. Still a significant help.

Moonsinger, one day when I have it all figured out AND have the time, I will write that article.

 

[Ribannah]

This is my tech progress until 1050 BC:

4000 BC Started with Bronze Working and Masonry
3400 BC Pottery, traded for Ceremonial Burial
2950 BC Traded for Warrior Code
2710 BC Mysticism, traded for Alphabet
2110 BC Mathematics, traded for Writing and The Wheel
1700 BC Literature
1575 BC Philosophy
1500 BC Traded for Map Making and Iron Working
1425 BC Code of Laws
1300 BC Traded for Horseback Riding
1100 BC The Republic

 

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Txurce
Several players dedicated one city to a GW, and still built well over ten. What did I do less efficiently? Sogut built a settler every six turns, which was the same as Ribannah’s capital, for example. Did other players build settlers with some of their other cities? Is there something to be learned about managing a settler pump, once the granary has been built?

I guess you shouldn't have settled on the starting location.

My capital was 1 tile sw and could produce a Settler every 4 turns and a Worker in 2. I threw in a Library in between which allowed me to (1) research faster, discovering The Republic well within the QSC timeframe, and (2) use the deer to have Iznik grow to finish The Pyramids before 1000 BC as well.

I could have had more cities by 1000 BC instead but that would in fact have slowed me down.

Remember that you need focus to play a good game.

Edit: retracting my positive comment on a certain player's timeline for reasons stated elsewhere.

Just plopping down as many cities as you can does not make your game.

 

[LKendter]

@shura - You are way outside the scope of this thread. I am sure that Cracker will snip soon enough. This was meant to cover the ancient time frame.

=====================================

4000 BC to 250 BC - This is a quite time of expansion that gets us cities for horses, silks, dyes and spices. We gained contact with Carthage and the Celts early. Rome contacted us at 530 BC. The gods shine upon us as Carthage declares war on the Celts in 330 BC.

230 BC to when 170 AD - We sign an alliance with Carthage to beat up the Celts and we get Code of Laws for doing what I was already planning to do. I laugh as Carthage allies with Rome vs. the Celts. We all know how useless the AI is a seaborne attacks. During this time we get the news that Egypt built the Great Library pretty much crushing any hope of a 20K city win - we got just one ancient age wonder of the Pyramids. We get nailed with 7 turns of Anarchy to head to Republic. We sign peace the Celts having just one city and we get worker, Polytheism, Construction and wm for our trouble. We signed peace just in time as Carthage destroys the Celts the next turn. We get our first leader who has plans for the middle ages.

========================

I only got 6 new cities founded during this time frame, so I expect my QSC score to suck. I had horrid luck with guessing the best tech to research with the AI following my path to often. My tech score will be lousy.

 

[LKendter]

My starting point.
The worker went down the red arrow to the best tile to develop.
I saw the game, and wanted in range of the capital ASAP.
I used the shields from the chop for instant spearman to avoid getting a very early war at emperor.

 

[el_kalkylus]

In this game I was trying DaveMCV's famous tactic with palace jump. This was a pretty easy emperor game start. The start position was incredible with 4 luxuries, cattles, wheat and rivers.



Turn # /Turns Left Year Comments
0 / 540 4000 BC- Warrior E finds silk to the north, game to the south and possibly sea to the east. Worker S finds nothing extra. Sogut founded and find wheat to the west, lol. Research Pottery at full speed.
1 / 539 3950 BC- Worker start building road. Warrior S.
2 / 538 3900 BC- Warrior keeps moving south.
3 / 537 3850 BC- Worker start mining.
4 / 536 3800 BC-
5 / 535 3750 BC- Warrior2 ready and goes N. Finds cattle to the north.
6 / 534 3700 BC- Warrior2 walks on the third mountain and it looks like sea to the east.Worker moves NE to plains.
7 / 533 3650 BC-
8 / 532 3600 BC- Green border in sight to the S. Tax change from 100 to 70%.
9 / 531 3550 BC- Meet with Keltoi archer. Exchange Masonry + Bronze Working for Warrior Code + Ceremonial Burial. Maybe I should take those two eqWorkers there. Tempting.
10 / 530 3500 BC-
11 / 529 3450 BC- Discover Pottery. Research Alphabet 100% (25 turns because I use dear, otherwise it would have been 18 turns). After much thinking, I decide to build a granary in the capital and let the worker chop down the forest to get the food bonus from the deer.
12 / 528 3400 BC-
13 / 527 3350 BC-
14 / 526 3300 BC-
15 / 525 3250 BC-
16 / 524 3200 BC-
17 / 523 3150 BC- Gain 10 shields for forest. Start irrigating. I check the Keltoi each turn if they have a worker for sale. They still don't have Pottery.
18 / 522 3100 BC- Meet neoCarthage warrior in the south. I trade Warrior Code, Pottery, Ceremonial Burial and 3g for Alphabet. I trade Pottery to Keltoi for 10 gold so they can't buy alphabet somehow. Now that I have wasted 9 turns researching Alphabet, I will research Mathematics at 10% speed.
19 / 521 3050 BC- Sogut size 3. Deer irrigated.
20 / 520 3000 BC-
21 / 519 2950 BC- Granary complete in Sogar. It is time to produce settlers.
22 / 518 2900 BC-
23 / 517 2850 BC-
24 / 516 2800 BC-
25 / 515 2750 BC-
26 / 514 2710 BC-

27 / 513 2670 BC- First settler! Move south.
28 / 512 2630 BC-
29 / 511 2590 BC- Iznik founded.
30 / 510 2550 BC- Keltoi discover Iron Working. neoCarthage discover The Wheel. I buy Iron Working for 86g, 5gpt and Alphabet. If I don't buy, they will exchange knowledge and it will be more expensive to buy their techs later. neoCarthage doesn't want Iron Working, and doesn't give me The Wheel!! I am not good at diplomacy...
31 / 509 2510 BC-
32 / 508 2470 BC- Second settler complete.
33 / 507 2430 BC-
34 / 506 2390 BC- Uskudar founded.
35 / 505 2350 BC-
36 / 504 2310 BC- Scythian encampent destroyed. I get 25 gold. Iznak completes a worker.
37 / 503 2270 BC- Third settler complete. Iznak worker chop down forest. Red border spotted on another island.
38 / 502 2230 BC-
39 / 501 2190 BC- Izmat founded.
40 / 500 2150 BC-
41 / 499 2110 BC-
42 / 498 2070 BC- Corruption in Iznik. The barracks will take longer to complete than I have planned.
43 / 497 2030 BC-
44 / 496 1990 BC- Fourth settler complete.Silk connected.
45 / 495 1950 BC-
46 / 494 1910 BC-
47 / 493 1870 BC- First coastal city, Aydin founded. Both neoCarthage and Keltoi discover Writing (it took them 17 turns).
48 / 492 1830 BC- Keltoi demand 27 gold. Of course I refuse. Can't blaim them for trying they say.
49 / 491 1790 BC- Sarbadar encampent destroyed. I get 25 gold.
50 / 490 1750 BC- Fifth settler complete.
51 / 489 1725 BC- Barracks completed in Uskudar. My warrior factory has opened.
52 / 488 1700 BC-
53 / 487 1675 BC- Antalya founded next to a pictish warrior, so I buy Writing for 131 gold and establish embassy with neoCarthage for 47 gold so that the warrior won't pillage too much of my gold. (91 gold left and 17gpt)
54 / 486 1650 BC- 15 gold pillaged from Antalya. Right of Passage with neoCarthage for 3 gold.
55 / 485 1625 BC-
56 / 484 1600 BC- Sixth settler complete (every settler comes from Sogut). Harappan encampent destroyed. I get 25 gold.
57 / 483 1575 BC-
58 / 482 1550 BC- Discover Mathematics. neoCarthage give me 235 gold for it, and Keltoi give me The Wheel and 28 gold for it. Research Currency at 100%. (lose 3 gpt). Current treasure: 455 gold.
59 / 481 1525 BC-
60 / 480 1500 BC- Cultural border expansion put dye into my territory which is already connected. Bursa founded. Bactrian encampent destroyed which gives me 25 gold.

61 / 479 1475 BC-
62 / 478 1450 BC- Seventh settler complete.
63 / 477 1425 BC-
64 / 476 1400 BC-
65 / 475 1375 BC- Bantu encampent destroyed which gives me 25 gold.
66 / 474 1350 BC- Spice connected (3rd luxury).Edirne founded.
67 / 473 1325 BC- Both Keltoi and neoCarthage discovers Map Making! I buy it for World map + 159 gold with Keltoi.
68 / 472 1300 BC-
69 / 471 1275 BC-
70 / 470 1250 BC-
71 / 469 1225 BC- Eight settler complete.
72 / 468 1200 BC- Iron connected. Upgrade 8 veteran warriors to swordsmen.Discoover Currency. Research Code of Laws.Keltoi and neoCarthage both discover Mysticism, sigh. I sell Currency to both of them for all their money and techs.
73 / 467 1175 BC-
74 / 466 1150 BC-
75 / 465 1125 BC-
76 / 464 1100 BC-
77 / 463 1075 BC-
78 / 462 1050 BC- Istanbul founded. neoCarthage discovers Horseback Riding (worthless tech for now).
79 / 461 1025 BC- Declare war on Keltoi and attack Moha`cs with three swordsmen.Two of them die, one survive and they are left with an elite spearman with 2 health left.
80 / 460 1000 BC- Discover Code of Laws. Research Philosophy. Entremont captured with only one swordsman loss! First unit promoted to elite status! Nubian encampent destroyed which gives me 25 gold. First galley created. Unfortunately a squid will kill it the very next turn .




I ended the war shortly after for contact with the Romans 900 bc. With heavy losses, I couldn't keep on fighting. Instead I prepared for my first palace jump ever. Forbidden palace was complete 850 bc and I made the palace jump 710 bc. See my new capital.


650 bc - The Pyramids built in Carthage (neoCarthage.)
590 bc - My first harbor complete. Trade luxuries with Romans.
550 bc - Discover The Republic and go into anarchy.
450 bc - Government Republic.
290 bc - Meet Indians and trade for world map and technologies. End of Ancient Age.

It took some time to find the other civilizations. Here are some dates that I wrote down:

One turn after 1000 bc, my first galley is killed by a squid.
825 bc my second galley is lost in the fog.
370 bc my third galley sink in the sea, {but just for the sake of mystery lets save that topic for the next discussion - }

 

[el_kalkylus]

@Shillen,
I attacked Entremont with 5 veteran swordsmen. If you look at my timeline, I didn't have much luck attacking Mohac with 3 swordsmen a turn before.

My fourth city started building forbidden palace around 1900 bc. It was really close to the capital, had very little corruption and could share already worked tiles with 2 other cities. So that is probably why I could build it faster. I didn't join any workers there.

I have to agree that Aeson was really bold when he attacked Entremont with only 3 swordsmen.

Edit: fixed the dates. It was 1900 bc not 1700 bc.

 

[el_kalkylus]

Shillen,
you are probably right again. Bonus grassland is very powerful in the beginning since the cities are so small then. And my placement on my forbidden palace and palace is quite bad actually. Lesson learned. This game has been very educational so far, and I will study it more as soon as I finish it.

You should be glad that you didn't attack Entremont as early as I did, because that gave you The Pyramids which is a real boost to growth and economy.

 

[el_kalkylus]

I also noticed the fog was very hard to kill. And the squids were killed quite easily despite their attack numbers. I saw Roman galleys kill squids quite easily while my galleys fled.