Discussion in 'Civ3 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by Spoonwood, Oct 25, 2008.
I went Writing-Code of Laws-Philosophy-Republic.
Remarkable start position for 001 though. Holy cow!!!
Jinkies. Even better 1NW though. If one were ever to try an OCC Sid game against the Mongols and Zulus (urk), that'd be the spot.
No slingshot in the Khaaaaaaaan game, just to make things clear. The slingshot happened in the Carthage game. I actually started on top of the cow on the river on the coast in the Khaaaaan game, and moved the settler to where 001 lies. The Zulu actually landed a few turns earlier and took 001, swapping my palace to 002. I managed to take it back though and get peace and after 001 put out a settler, I put it on the palace so I could use the palace pre-build in 002 again. But, then Khan snuck attack me, and with them having plopped down cities on my island, and I don't know how to predict an attack under such a situation as well as when an AI doesn't have a city and brings galleys near me.
I did a 20k Large Sid game with Carthage where I didn't have any hills or mountains for my 20k site, had a despotic GA which did absolutely nothing or almost absolutely nothing for my 20k city in terms of production, and I managed to finish in 1750 AD. I think I only had 25 or so shields pre-Shake's. The England small game by the way didn't have a GA until I built Smith's in the industrial ages.
After quite a few maps which didn't work out I have a standard Sid 20k game going with Carthage where I managed the Mongolian Republic slingshot as they got me Code of Laws. Thing is, I had to buy it, so I declared war on them immediately. They couldn't reach me without the Lighthouse, but they built it. That has worked out well, after island blocking another island, I declared on them later to farm for an MGL. They had 2 luxuries I could trade for, but I passed on them for that MGL. At one point I had two redlined Keshiks which I attacked with 5/6 elites, and both of my elites died, but I did get a leader after a bit.
The Mongols had Engineering for a while, and I delayed learning Education by a turn, as Arabia just picked it up with 1 turn left on the slider. Then I researched Music Theory and popped an SGL on that. I started on Astronomy, and the Mongols popped up with it a turn or two later. So, I "made peace" throwing in gpt for Astronomy in the deal and immediately declared on them again. I swapped from Bach's to Cope's, finished it, and then SGLed Bach's. Then I went to Banking and Economics so I wouldn't run out of builds. After I think more than 10 turns the Mongols would offer peace, but they had Chemistry. So, I signed another deal for Chemistry and peace via gpt. Then I redeclared on the Mongols again. Since they have Chemistry, but not the Printing Press, I've started research on Physics towards ToG.
Here's a screenshot
of my 20k site in the Standard game still in progress.
The Mongols managed to beat me to Theory of Gravity. But, due to pre-building and going to Theory or Gravity in this game before Free Artistry, I managed Newton's and Shake's. The Standard Sid 20k game with Carthage finished in 1665. I've checked and I didn't get a single extra shield from my GA in my Large 20k game.
I've played two large spaceship games with Sumeria vs. all the scientific tribes, Carthage, Japan, and France. The first one I played on Deity, taking territory from Germany and Persia (who got eliminated before the modern age by someone else, but I think I picked up all 4 techs). Russia had their core far away from me, and plopped down a city letting me get a golden age going around 90 BC. I launched in 1190. The second one I played on Demi-God, and had my first war against my neighbor Carthage with knights. Later on I absorbed almost all of Germany in the industrial ages, and Russia in the modern age. I wasn't going to war after that point, but Babylon declared on me, so I had a modern age war with them, where I ended up killing a bunch of mechanized infantry with artillery, cavalry armies, tanks, and tank armies. I launched that game in 1020.
830 Sid Large Conquest. I played an 80% map with max opponents (reserach based). My capital put out 7 settlers, and then built the granary, and got founded on a coast. I had two AIs on islands (Greece and Japan) who I had to kill late, and I should have put more ships onto boats at the end, but I thought it wouldn't help. Even with 5 cities a Sid level AI can train a ton of units.
So, I'm giving Large Sid Conquest a go again, but this time with China. I haven't read about the following trick, but it might lie around here somewhere:
Before I would trade techs away instead of gpt sometimes for luxuries or resources. This game, I haven't done that so much. I noticed that a bunch of AIs weren't getting Invention. So, when Germany finished Sun Tzu's, I checked who still had it in the F7 screen the next turn. I wanted to attack Greece as my first opponent and sure enough, they had Sun Tzu's in progress. So, I got them Invention, and they finished Leonardo's Workshop the next turn in Athens. A few turns later, I captured Athens (which also has the Pyramids), and now since I've gotten rolling in my GA I can produce a rider every single turn for either 140 gold, with 80 gold for short-rushing a worker, and then getting 20 more shields to the horse via regular production, and then 60 gold for an upgrade, or for 180 gold with 80 gold for short-rushing a worker, 40 more gold for short-rushing a spear, and 60 more gold for the upgrade.
Some 230 BC screenshots of my China game. I had one initial ring of cities around my capital, for a total of 6 cities before any wars:
Those aren't real builds.
Here's my economy in 230 BC:
My army in 230 BC:
And the current front in 230 BC:
In my latest game, going for a histographic game on Sid, I've started giving away cities with luxuries, renegotiating peace treaties for those luxuries, and then cutting the trade route so the AI declares on me. However, in this game in particular, since I had a "war" with Egypt earlier and we re-negotiated after that, the peace treaty turned into a 20 turn deal. Could I have avoided this someway by having "always renegotiate deals" off instead of on? I did have it on in this game. So, after gifting away my cities, I learned I couldn't renegotiate peace, and thus couldn't get them to declare on me... so either I would weaken my (both my RoP and my trading) reputation by starting the war, or leaving Egypt alone for 6 turns (if I finished off England and Persia by then). See the ST save for more details on this particular point.
I've also decided to include some other saves from this game (and I have many more if anyone wants to see any). A few times throughout this game, especially with how I managed such a huge cash flow, I've basically decided that even if I struggle a little at first with naval landings, I'll learn how to handle it (not quite sure why I have a hang-up on this... I just haven't done this much on Sid... and I'll probably want/need defensive armies). I think I'll still go with maximum opponents, to increase the number of luxuries/resources available (if I'm correct on that). I also think that even if I had beaten SirPleb's score, which I do believe I could have done, I would end up much happier with the growth from the agricultural trait. Though, China looked a little more appealing due to the larger number of elites than can get, after a while I still had plenty of armies from cash-rushing, and plenty of cavalry (almost all upgraded from horses) that even without armies, I would do fine.
From my two large Sid conquest games (one with the Iroquois and one with China), I've tried to various things with all the cash I make. In my standard Maya conquest game, I had let horseman complete via shields, and then upgrade them to knights/cavalry. In the Iroquois or China conquest game, I felt I had started sitting on too large of a treasury at some point, so I started short-rushing horses, often with spears... sometimes from nothing, buying a worker first, then a spear, and then letting the horse complete in a 10 shield per turn town. That seemed to deplete my cash a little too quickly I think in the China conquest game, so in the Huge histographic canned game, I decided to forget paying 80 gold for a worker.
15 shield cities built a horse-rider/cavalry in 2 turns (upgrading in the interturn). 10 shield cities also did this in 2 turns, but by using a spear and later an explorer for short-rushing. Post-golden age, 20-shield cities did spear-muskets every turn (which I may have overbuilt, but I probably don't mind that). Cities without 10 shields would mostly do something else or finish a horse completely. However, at some points, especially at the very start of the Persian war, I had some cities with any shields in the box cash-rush a horse-cavalry, as I had Sun Tzu's and Leo's... which I had worked to capture (especially Leo's). I kind of hit a snag running through the jungle, and had to run around Persian units going to attack the Ottomans for Leo's. I also cash-rushed armies, while using horse-cavalry upgrades, but only cash-rushed armies after I had started the Persian war, as I spent a lot of gold the first turn in upgrades that turn.
In my Maya pangea Sid game which I had stopped playing long ago, but hadn't entirely given up until I started this one, I had NOT cash-rushed infrastructure. But, in the China game (and I think it worked out best to do so), I did cash-rush granaries, markets, a few libraries, and barracks once I felt I had enough cash to continue getting gpt from the AIs. Markets I cash-rushed for happiness. I didn't, however, cash-rush banks, since I put those in purely to make money.
There's something about resistance also, which I'll use some of these files to test here...
O. K. So, I gifted away New York to Egypt in 520. If you check the Mao's Might save above, you can see that it has a significant amount of resistance. If you check below, I've taken it back from Egypt, and it still has resistance. America has cities producing culture, so I guess it makes sense.
Now, Persia doesn't have anymore cities. Xexres is singing "I'm on a boat" and I have forgotten. If you look at Dariush Kabir in the Mao's Might save above, it has a significant amount of resistance. So, I gave it to Egypt and then re-take it. As the post resistance Persia save indicates, the resistance no longer exists.
Now, let's look at England. They still have one city around (which I had noticed at one point, then forgot about, and then re-noticed). If you check the Mao's Might save above, London has 10 resistors. If you look at the Post Resistance Capture save below, you'll notice it has 2 citizens which aren't resistors.
So, the upshot of all this seems that if an AI produces little culture per turn, and you gift their old cities now in your hands to another AI, and re-take them, some resistance might stop. However, if an AI has literally no cities producing any culture whatsoever, you gift away their resisting cities to another AI, and retake them, you'll quash all resistance.
So, I set MapFinder to run overnight with a river, a grassland cow, and a domination limit of at least 4400. Out some 4400+ maps, only 4 maps met those criteria! I had little idea of how rare such maps were.
I did some investigation of Persian cities in one of my saves from the Chinese Huge game. It turns out, that basically since I get a cavalry every 2 turns on average for a maximum of 115 gold (75 for the upgrade, 40 for short-rushing via a spear or explorer) with Leo's, or 190 (150 for the upgrade from the horseman, 40 for the short-rushing) gold without Leo's, from any city with 10 shields, I can pretty much at least draw even, if not actually outtrain any AI in terms of military development (at least before they have rails/factories/coal plants). The 15 shields cities only need 75 or 150 gold for a cavalry every 2 turns. Knights cost a maximum of 100 gold with Leo's, and 180 gold without. The amount of gold needed here, with the disconnect-reconnect at work, and only using luxuries and taxes doesn't seem hard to come by, and you might actually still draw in more money (especially after you acquire Leo's one way or another) than you buy with, before cash-rushing armies.
For a cavalry (or rifle) it costs a sid-level AI 32 shields, so they need 16 shields for 2 turn production, and 32 shield production doesn't happen until later for them. For a knight it costs them 28 shields, for a musket it costs them 24 shields... all of which happen every 2 turns in their most productive cities at best. So, this basically means that even with fewer cities than a Sid level AI, you can outtrain a Sid level AI in terms of military!
When I also consider factors like military alliances, that I attack the AIs with strong force before they can counter-attack, I use artillery more systematically than the AIs, etc. it seems no wonder that the only problems in my Sid-level military games have seemed 1. positioning units in the right place before rails (which made the start of the Sumeria war in the Chinese large game, which has screenshots above, and should appear in the update a bit hairy), and 2. coping with a large stack of units (larger than the screen can take up, or about that size) which the strongest AIs have moved around somewhere. I've generally dealt with this by giving away cities to another AI, and which usually manages to split up the stack.
This is probably the wrong place to ask this , for that I apologize. What exactly is the "domination limit" you refer to? I'm ever appreciative of you sharing your expertise on all matters Civ 3. My tactics have improved so much since I started reading the articles/posts on this site. I'm using way more workers , artillery , rushing production , republic slingshot , more micro management , many things I never did previously.
I sent in my first HOF game last month , have two more I should be able to send in this week and hope to get one more in before mid Dec. These are all at or below emperor level , It's not that I'm any good, there are just lots of open spaces in the rankings
I've dl'd Mapfinder but have yet to run it or check it out , hopefully later this week . I have windows 7 and started to get a headache just reading about the way to install/run it on that system.
Thanks for any explanation of the "domination limit" you refer to , all of your generous knowledge sharing , and best of luck in your HOF endeavors!
The domination limit is the number of tiles you need to own in order to trigger a domination win (which also requires a certain population). For a high scoring histographic game, having a high domination limit means you can own a lot of tiles (for a lot of points) while still avoiding a domination win.
Thanks for the explanation , CKS, much appreciated!
I think the Aztecs may be a pretty good choice. With them you could have it both ways, lots of elites, cheap barracks and harbors on one hand, and bonus food and cheap aqueducts on the other hand. It doesn't matter so much whose UU you are not going to use that much. (From the save that you posted, I think you did not use the Rider all that much. The game is just too fast for that and it was all about Cavalries, right?)
Personally, in my small Sid histographic game, I thought about the Aztecs too, but it was too late. Before I could really try them I already had a good game with the Maya going.
In that game, I prepared for the first war with riders. I declared and fought on the first turn with riders, and then Military Tradition appeared. The AI hadn't even researched Physics yet, and I think Printing Press, Astronomy, and Banking were out there, but they didn't even have Democracy or Navigation at that point. My Iroquois game also got to Military Tradition fairly fast.
On the other hand, I have an archipelago game going right now with the Maya, and my first war has used knights (I know Moonsinger's 88k game also happened with knights for her first game), at least one or two AIs know the entire upper half of the tech tree (above Chemistry) and they know Physics also, but no one knows Metallurgy. Also, in my large 80% pangea conquest game with China I basically had to research Physics and Magnetism myself towards the end, and Babylon came up with Military Tradition a turn or two before I finished them, and I decided not to trade for it. I did the entire game with riders basically. So, it seems pretty hit-or-miss as to what you'd get out of riders.
On pangea having industrious workers, certainly helped me speed up the conquest... especially once I could build rails. I have a feeling they will also significantly on an archipelago map, and the faster growth and production later on no doubt will help with score. So, I don't see the Aztecs outdoing the Maya, unless the number of elites they generate comes as significantly higher in the end, such that the road to the domination limit ends up going significantly faster with the Aztecs than the Maya.
I did a small, Deity spaceship on an 80% archipelago where I played it like how I play 20k games in some ways. It took me only 7 some hours to complete.
On the Tiny Chieftain 100k game a few posts back, Why did you choose the Celts over the Sumerians? The only advantage I can see is the reduced anarchy, but since you didn't even bother with Republic, did not utilize government switching to cash rush, and relied on the TOA, that amounted to a few turns saved in anarchy and nothing more. Compare that to saving citizens on a Library or University and it seems like a clear advantage.
Did you choose the Celts anticipating a different strategy, or is the anarchy that problematic in this type of game? Are there any benefits I'm missing?
I would assume your original plan was to beeline the republic slingshot after masonry, make the switch, then get to Feudalism faster with the extra income.
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