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Spoonwood's Hall of Fame Attempts

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by Spoonwood, Oct 25, 2008.

  1. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I don't know why I choose The Celts at the time. I could have done so, because they made for the conventional choice for a 20k game. It looks like I had played a 100k game with Sumeria before that record-setting game with The Celts. But, I think I would choose The Celts again for another 100k game.

    A few threads back I wrote that for the Celts you need:

    "5 citizens to whip in a library
    5 citizens to whip in a cathedral
    7 citizens to whip in a colosseum."

    For Sumeria you need:

    3 citizens to whip in a library
    9 citizens to whip in a cathedral
    7 citizens to whip in a colosseum.

    So, even though you have earlier libraries and thus earlier culture, you need 2 more citizens per city until you have a library and a cathedral in the city. Happiness doesn't matter much on Chieftain, but on a higher level it would matter more and then the cathedral has even more benefits to it. Also, growing a city from size 7 to size 8, and then size 9 requires even more food. Maybe you could offset that with some well placed worker add-ins. Additionally, short-rushing both a library and a cathedral ends up easier than short-rushing a cathedral. By short-rushing, I mean you whip in something with 20 shields less than the library or cathedral (as The Celts). You can't very effectively do that with a 160 shield cathedral, since you top out with a 120 shield colosseum for short-rushing. Though, I don't recall if you have say 3 citizens and 40 shields in the box if you need to have access to a 60 shield build such as a musket, or you can just directly whip to 80 shields and get say an 80 shield library... So, I checked one of the saves, and you can't just jump from 40 shields to 80 shields with 3 citizens and no musket. You have to short-rush the musket and then you can whip in the 80 shield building.

    So, even though Sumeria has libraries earlier, and that gives your civilization more culture earlier on, I think that the advantages of The Celts outweigh that.

    Oh... it looks like I didn't have huts on in my game also. So, almost surely, a faster 100k finish is possible, since if you can snag a free settler with your first hut pop, you'll grow faster. Some free techs might also get you to Feudalism faster.
     
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  2. BlackHat

    BlackHat Chieftain

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    I forgot how expensive cathedrals are.

    I'm targeting the standard map so your record is safe. On the one map that I got an SGL huts gave me about 8 techs before I decided that plains cows are indeed poor for this type of game unless you have a few extra 3 food tiles in the right place.

    The one thing I noticed for the SGL game with the Celts was the early golden age from the pyramids. I can imagine a world where it is actually tremendously helpful because the settler factories can start working with fewer worker turns and workers can finish up during the 20 turn period. At the same time, you will only have a handful of tiny cities at the start of the GA, and not much to multiply, nor much to direct the multiplication to. Temples have limited utility since the TOA is coming, and libraries aren't available for at least 2 techs. Given your comments on food and how almost all shields are whipped I'm not sure a GA is really that useful for infrastructure building anyway. Overall I'm having a hard time seeing how to make the GA very useful for this concept. If you could trigger a GA at any time, how would you use it?
     
  3. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    If I trigger it in a better government than Despotism, I might run a 2 turn settler factory along with better production.

    But, the advantages of earlier Pyramids might outweigh that sort of bonus for a 100k game.
     
  4. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I've tried to play Sid pangea lately WITHOUT using the "screw yourself" tactic or "disconnect-reconnect" of trade routes for gpt, lump sums of gold, and techs. The following made for the game that has gone the farthest. It looked very promising, other than I had a very strong neighbor.

    Perhaps Montezuma got his revenge on me for the scout block I had set up against him long ago. I was just about ready to tell Brennus to move his units AFTER I had purchased some techs (hence all of those barricades... I had planned to make him declare war on me... but Montezuma had other plans). I didn't have coal though, and I'm not sure if I could have traded around for it. At least I managed to hand-build The Great Library.

    I did a 50 turn run on Alphabet, purchased Writing and then researched Literature on maximum. I didn't put out a settler right away. Instead I put out a scout, then the granary, and then settlers. Eventually I made the capital into a 4 turn wealth-settler factory and then a 4 turn scout-settler factory for scout block, but I still had some settles land in my area. One appeared unexpectedly inland.
     

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  5. BlackHat

    BlackHat Chieftain

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    What's the "Screw yourself" tactic? This is a new term for me...
     
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  6. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I've called it "Moonsinger's Green Rule" before. I think I had incorrectly believed she had used it when she hadn't, though maybe she did. I thought you referred to it here, but when I checked your save I didn't feel so sure:

    "After a bit of peace renegotiation (they even agreed to send me dyes for a reduced cost!) babylon decided to betray the trust of my great ottoman empire and declare war despite our ROP. The shame! They said the trade route was broken and they could no longer deliver the dyes to my capital, but I think they just wanted an excuse"

    You probably know what I'm talking about, but for any onlookers, it involves you sending them gpt for a luxury or resource for their hard goods, including possibly a peace treaty. Then you pillage your relevant road(s) and get all of their hard goods for free. If you combine it with sending them hard goods for the gpt that they have, and then get those hard goods back, you can get very rich on Sid level. Drazek's 10 AD save in his 90k game illustrates one option. You only have one road at your borders which you strategically pillage. Drazek's 1000 BC save in his 93k game illustrates another. You only have a city with a single harbor. Then you pillage the roads to that city. Drazek's 10 AD save in his 93k game illustrates another. You only have one road from your capital city and then pillage that road.

    Many people do claim it exploitative, and with respect to that claim, it seems like one of those things that for the HoF it can work a little bit differently. I do NOT see it as something that would lead to faster finish dates at lower levels, unless done very sparingly, because the AIs have fewer hard goods and you can't produce as much commerce yourself. At Sid though, it can work out really well, but even at that level I don't think it would enable faster 20k finishes. Some of the fast conquest/domination victories also I think show that it's not always optimal. And you don't want to use it until the end of the game. The optimal shut-off point I don't think all that clear. I think my standard spaceship game has roads all around my capital instead of rails, even though I hadn't made a pillage since the industrial or medieval era, and that makes for some food missed on my part.

    On another note, I've recently learned/re-discovered that if you have The Great Library and set your research to the tech that you will learn the next turn, then you can use "what's the big picture" to immediately trade around that tech. In that way, you might just pick up some more gpt or gold that you wouldn't have if you hadn't used "what's the big picture".
     
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  7. BlackHat

    BlackHat Chieftain

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    Ahhh yes. I did indeed disconnect my capital there, but the railroads in the cow tiles were required to get to 80 SPT and allow 1 turn rifle-infantries. Not a big deal, I just used the free pillaging of armies to destroy the connection then rebuilt the railroads before going off to make trouble with full movement. The railroad in the desert to the north was once my single pillage tile, but I've sloppily kept it since rail-roading the cows.

    I conflate all road cutting tactics into "disconnect-reconnect", but the benefit of cutting a road on a resource like iron or saltpeter to allow a different unit build is indeed quite different from the cutting a trade route. Do you consider disconnection of strategic resources to be exploitive or cheap? It seems like a legitimate use of the game mechanics to me.

    Trade route cutting to get hard goods for nothing is a no doubt about it exploit to me. But you're right - the difficulty/VC combinations that can use it are quite rare, though they happen to be the most prestigious. And it's really not that problematic to have some special skills required to compete at the highest levels. By the time you get to Diety where it's starting to be really useful we're so far from the original intent of the game play that it doesn't severely damage the experience or change the skills required for success.

    Interesting point on the GLib. It's been forever since I've given serious thought to it's use, mainly due to the effectiveness of trade route cutting.
     
  8. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    No, not at all. But, from my recent games it seems like something which might work out well sometimes, but other times you simply need the cash for other things.


    I'm not sure I agree, though I'm not sure I completely understand your point. I mean it sounds like you said that you consider getting hard goods via trade route cutting is an exploit, but then it's not so much once we get to a level where it can be useful. At Sid level (I've never used it on Deity) I've generally combined getting hard goods AND gpt with the disconnection-reconnection of strategic resources. Some of the HoF Sid games give you some idea of how powerful it can be including games by me, ignas, Drazek, and Gyathaar, though not all of them used it to full effect. If you use getting tech, hard goods, and gpt with the disconnection-reconnection of strategic resources then you can effectively maintain tech parity instead of getting behind at some point, you can cash rush say galleons, you can basically build 70 shield knights for the cost of 30 shield horseman or 80 shield cavalry for 30 shield horseman. The horseman-cavalry rate is slightly better than the rate at which Sid level AIs can build a horseman. Though, come to think of it they often have lump sums lying around and don't use strategic resource disconnect-reconnect, so they could put out cavalry faster potentially. And in the games I've played, I've often had enough cash to cash rush armies once I can finish the Military Academy (I think the tiny map I did worked a bit differently in that I had to wait a few turns to cash rush armies). Research a tech? Only if you want to pick up the tech pace, because otherwise you'll probably have it soon enough. Attempt to steal tech? why bother when you can pick it up for free? Pull off an 2-fer? But, there's no need to do so. Worry about ruining your RoP reputation? But why not just have them declare on you instead, and pillage their strategic resources on the very first turn of the war?
     
  9. BlackHat

    BlackHat Chieftain

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    Sorry, very poor communication. My point is that it's an exploit because it violates the spirit of the game by giving you free stuff. And not by clever trading to pull of 2 or 3 fer's and get your cash back, but simply by negating the trade function entirely. But that because it's so specific to higher levels (where it is indeed extremely powerful) it's not that damaging to the HOF and doesn't bother me to use it or see it used.
     
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  10. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    This may seem like a bit of a nit pick, but doing such is not quite free, unlike say how signing a military alliance against an AI right before you kill them with gpt for hard goods or the "leave or declare" tactic can net you free stuff (though that can fail, and I'm not sure how to predict it exactly). I'm confident that you realize that, but I may as well spell it out.

    You have to use worker turns for any re-roading/re-mining/re-irrigating that you do. Also, you lose any commerce, growth, or production that you would have if you had other tiles roaded or railroaded.

    So, as an example let's say that you use your landlocked capital every turn and don't road 7 of the adjacent squares but have one roaded, then you pay the use of however many pillaging units you used let's say two warriors, however many workers you use a turn... perhaps 4 workers if industrious perhaps 6 if non-industrious, you pay one commerce for every river square, two commerce for every non-river square, and perhaps a shield or a food every turn before rails. Of course, you can gain more than that. One benefit seems that you might get earlier production or growth out of your capital since if you plan on doing that early on, then you don't have to spend time roading up your capital... though you would/do lose out on commerce early on to save worker turns overall. Ceterius paribus, the degree of overall benefit ends up largest for a huge map with powerful AIs and lowest for a tiny map with weak AIs.

    On another note lately I've though about how much you might gain for buying a slave for 100 gold early on. If you have the slave concentrate on roading squares, which minimizes the amount of work lost by moving onto an unroaded square, you can produce an extra coin before corruption every 7 turns. So, if you can manage to road up maybe 16 squares with that slave, you might just make money on the slave before taking into work it does for mining/irrigation/forestry/railroading/pollution cleaning.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
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  11. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I have a fairly decent 60% wet, warm pangea game going with Rome. I had something of a chokepoint of three squares in the middle of the map near my core and next to where Arabia lay and a coast nearby also close to a drop off point for another civ! It got even better when I learned that except for Arabia the AIs on end of the map didn't know the other AIs on the other end, so I managed to use "What's the Big Picture" and pick up some nice cash via selling techs in the middle ages.

    My first war was with The Celts hoping that they would drop off units nearby me. Near 008 here. I had signed military alliances to keep some other AIs off of my back, but The Celts only dropped off two units in a different spot, so it didn't work. Though, it did move Arabian units and wore them down. I knew Arabia didn't have iron, but I wasn't sure if they had saltpeter, so I did an investigation of a border town before my first war started and they only had spears. So, with a small force of cavs, legions, and cannons I've taken on Arabia. Though it seems that I keep doing things that it looks like I could improve upon. I had gifted Arabian cities to the Celts (I have NOT built any defensive units so far), because I worried about them sending horseman at me, but they seem to prefer longbows. I guess that makes sense in a way, since longbows have more of an attack. The Celts though were still at war with the Maya so the Maya took the Celtic cities and they are rather powerful.

    I have three MGLed armies... two 3 cavalry armies, and one legion army which I make by accident, but I guess I've used it protect my cannon stack.

    I planning on signing military alliances against Arabia before I take their capital, hopefully for tech, though possibly for some lump sums. I have my cavalry armies moving towards the far away by land coal source. I'm putting out two galleons to try and put a settler out on top of that coal source, so I can build some rails.

    I don't have too much of a border with Egypt and though the Maya have more gold currently, Egypt has larger cities and thus I'm more concerned about their research potential. Both of them have started the Theory of Evolution. I plan on pillaging out Egypt with the cavalry armies and explorers to hamper their growth and hopefully their research.

    I've looked over the map and unless there exists some far away island at one of the poles, there does not exist a single tundra square on this wet, warm, 60% pangea map.

    Egyptian Border.jpg
    008.jpg coal city.jpg coal city.jpg :
     
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  12. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Wait... I forgot that Frigates require Iron and Saltpeter. So, I think I'll just put out one galleon and hope that it doesn't get sunk by the Arabians.

    I had a good two-fer with one tribe knowing both Chemistry and Astronomy, another only knowing Chemistry, and another knowing Astronomy. I calculated everything and over the course of 20 turns I ended up making 1932 on all of the deals. There was one point where only The Maya knew Steam Power, so I attempted a safe steal using what I had left around from the middle ages, but it failed. My spy did get away without getting detected though. There would have existed quite a bit of benefit had it worked. See below.

    Steam Safe Steal Attempt.jpg

    The Inca also don't have horses. I had thought about attacking them next partially for that reason. Here's MapStat at 480 AD. Wow... I hadn't payed that close of attention before. I think the Maya started on Theory of Evolution in 470 AD, if not 460 AD. That's Industrialization, Electricity, and Scientific Method in a mere 13 turns! The Maya are a Monarchy and Egypt is Fascist also.


    MapStat Rome 480.jpg
     
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  13. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Arabia learned Nationalism the next turn. At least I got something out of that pre-Nationalism window, even if I could have gotten more.
     
  14. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    The Maya started their rail project in 490 also. Egypt has a coal source, but it's unhooked and I have an explorer moving around and hovering it for now. It lies out within the borders of a city between the blue (America) and purple borders (The Inca). I think I would have to wait too long to set up something resembling an adequate defense against The Maya also. I do think I might handle Egypt though and have an experimental idea as to how to manipulate their behavior. Basically instead of barricading my entire border with Egypt I barricade the borders around 003 and 007, those furthest from Egypt's core, and don't put defenders in them. But, I don't barricade around 010. I put some defensive units there, and my offensive units. With any luck, and some nice pillaging Egypt will then ignore trying to attack 010 and send it's units towards 003 and 007, and I won't have to kill so many units in barricades straight away. It also makes for 5 barricaded tiles instead of 10. Even if they attack 010 though, that only makes for one city that I need to defend, so it sounds right even if Egypt doesn't do as I hope.

    Also, looking at the screenshot, I can see that three of their cities have harbors. So, there exists less benefit in pillaging the roads around those cities, since cutting all of those would not disconnect them from their trade network. El-Amarna won't have the ability to produce any units requiring resources or use luxuries though with it's eight adjacent roads cut. Looking at the map more that makes for a line of attack for my army-explorer pillaging combos. One swings out east and a bit north and cuts those cities and some other roads along the way. Another swings south and east and cuts those cities out... carefully taking into account terrain movement for the army and strategic resources. They converge somewhere in the center, then spread back out and pick up anything else which looks good to pillage or that has gotten reconnected. If I can get a 4th army out here soon, I should have 16 cities once I eliminate Arabia, though flips might happen, then I can have another army specially suited to attacks or helping make sure that any captured cities (I really want to keep cities) don't end up liable to Egyptian attacks. But, I think I'll still keep/put some cities on explorers, even if I only need a few for this first war. The later the game goes, the more likely that the AIs will have more railroaded tiles and the more likely that they will get to Flight. I don't know how bad bombers can get here, but I think there's a chance that even if I can't get to Refining and spot oil, the more army-explorer combos I have out pillaging early on in a war, the greater the probability that one of the armies or explorers can pillage out cities on the trade network and/or pillage out the desert squares and marsh squares/grassland squares.

    Oh... that makes think of another hidden benefit of the expansionist trait. I mean I've realized that if you have the right opponents one subtle benefit on Sid is that you might manage to pick up early workers, because of the quicker contacts. The other one I just realized comes about mainly from learning/re-learning that rubber can appear in forests (and I think jungle). So, if you can keep track of which squares had what kind of tiling before any clearing, then you can increase your probability of making a strategic pillage, even if you don't know where resources lie such as rubber or oil. Maybe aluminum and uranium lie also? I don't know what type of squares they can appear in.
     
  15. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I've checked the civopedia and uranium can only appear in forests and mountains. Aluminum appears in hills and tundra. Thus, if you can't see uranium, and you keep an idea of where forests lay when you first saw them, then an expansionist tribe has a better probability of pillaging it out before a Manhattan Project build or to keep the number of nukes down as much as possible.

    Some opportunities missed in this Roman game and other thoughts.

    I've learned that having two cow starts with a forest within the initial 8 squares around the capital seems best for this sort of Sid pangea map. Without a forest, a second warrior for scouting requires an extra turn. With a forest, I can irrigate the first cow, get a warrior out in 5 turns, and then get another warrior out in 3 turns via that fourth shield on growth and then two turns of 3 shields at size 2. With pre-selected opponents, that can put me in a better trading position earlier. A single turn later in a contact might not seem like much if I manage to build The Great Library. But, even with that, a single turn later might mean that I don't have an opportunity to trade around your initial techs for say workers or Alphabet and Masonry.

    If going for The Great Library, I like the third build as a settler. The settler just goes for the best looking spot close to the capital. It then starts on some prebuild and hopefully I can manage to pick up Masonry via multiple contacts who probably don't even know each other since I've sent my warriors in opposite directions. Maybe a worker if the second city has say another cow nearby first.

    With respect to scouting I've liked the idea of running east and west along the equator first. If there exists someone to the north or south of me, and I'm say in the northern half or the southern half of the map respectively, hopefully they find me. If not, then scouting that direction won't yield me an early contact, so it can wait. Marsh and jungle can help to recognize where the equator lies, so I try to pay attention to it, though with an expansionist tribe I try to stay just north or just south of the equator. This way I can run east-west and hopefully multiple tribes run into me soon enough one moving north and the other moving south. A scouting unit which sees tundra, I guess could have the advantage of seeing forests early on (see notes on rubber and uranium above), but for contacts the probability of picking of a contact that way seems much lower than running east or west along the equator and then moving north or south when a coast gets spotted. Running along the coast can work well if you have seafaring or commercial opponents. Fortunately I'm taking about a Sid map, not some Chieftain map where curraghs have yet to get sighted. But, with this Roman map I actually sent both of the first two warriors to the east and didn't meet the Maya, Celts, or Japan until I had RoPs set up and even put out a curragh which met The Maya.

    So, let's say that I start in the northern part of the map and I can see or believe that I have coast to the west. Then the first scout will head south. The second scout will head east and then south once it spots or gets near the coast. In this Roman game I got a bit lucky in that Arabia ran near me with their scout, and I met The Inca with one of my first scouts, and managed to use Warrior Code for Masonry and some other early techs. I've started keeping something of a trading log for other starts, but not much for this Roman experiment, since I planned on The Great Library. I did pick up some early workers via techs.

    I set research to 0 from the start. It sometimes seems quicker to purchase Writing outright, than to make a 50 turn run on it. But, I'm not so sure about that if you only want to pay a lump sum in gold for Writing, then a 50 turn might work better. But, if you have to trade for Alphabet early on, maybe no research works out better. Then after I picked up Writing, I did a max run on Literature. I ended up using some scientists to match up my pre-build. In another game I had used scientists in The Great Library city, but in this game I struck on the idea of using scientists in other cities instead of slowing down the pre-build. It makes for slower growth elsewhere, but earlier Literature and a faster pre-build sounds safer.

    I had workers heading towards and developing that city. I joined in 6 workers once I learned Literature and noticed that the last worker provided no extra added benefit on The Great Library build. I probably would do better to add workers up to say size 10, then check on how many shields I have per turn by say seeing how many shields would get wasted if I changed to a settler, adding 30 shields and then seeing how many shields I have total doing some calculations.

    With respect to calculations, I don't have it down cold on the initial sequence of worker moves other than irrigate the first cow, road it, and move the second cow. Do I road or mine or irrigate first?

    In the American attempt above I revolted right away and my 20k city dropped down to size 6. I forgot about the alternating civil disorder/contentedness tactic to never lose a building. Will they burn down a wonder during a riot? If not, and my 20k city isn't adjacent to a neighbor, I might just let the thing riot during the anarchy in some future attempt. But, in this game I delayed the revolution by 6 turns and put out six workers from the 20k city. So, though I joined 6 workers I got them back. But, I still lost more population, because I didn't anticipate how I would keep my citizens content. So, I've learned that shortly before the revolution comes you can best manage things overall by planning to get cities down to a manageable size during the revolution. And delay it to prevent or minimize starvation and/or food loss. With no luxuries and some nice grasslands around or irrigated plains, that makes for size 3 cities, though thinking more this can depend on food bonuses. With that in mind, infrastructure beyond a granary in the capital or other high food city site during Despotism just doesn't seem like the way to go in general.

    Thinking on the American disaster above, I might have done a little better to put out some muskets. Not so much for defending the border towns that I ended up losing, though maybe I could have held onto them that way. I did NOT consider putting barricades up around say my capital. If I had done that, and the Aztecs were not willing to consider peace (they were, but it cost quite a bit), then I might have managed to slow them down and protect my inner ring cities with some muskets in barricades and the few cannons I had around.
     
  16. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I've checked out the units associated with strategic resources. Though, The Manhattan Project only requires uranium, nukes require both both aluminum and uranium. There exist more units associated with aluminum. I don't have pictures from early on, so I don't know about cleared forests. The Maya fortunately seem to have marsh, which I believe always sits near the equator and desert near the equator. So, I might manage to pillage their oil blindly early on if I keep going in this one.

    I've also thought that once I have a few more armies it might work out as worth it to send an army on one galleon and a pack of explorers on another. Actually, probably ideally two packs of explorers on a galleon, and possibly even a frigate for protection... though this idea now seems less promising due to the cost of building those ships or having losses. Then such a 3 cavalry army and explorer pack can land at the back of the target AI on the first turn without having engaged in something that ruins my RoP Reputation. Then it can head towards those more distant spots from my territory. Thebes lies on top of horses and is landlocked.

    In 500 AD America has landed two veteran cavalry next to Khurasan and it lies defended by at least an unfortified conscript rifle. So, that might suggest a war with The Inca or The Celts for coal instead.
     
  17. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Interturn I lose the 3 arabic slaves I had captured, which I had believed safe, but both American cavalry lost, making the conscript rifle into a veteran one.

    510 AD - I spawn a fourth MGL. But, I only have 14 cities at the moment, since I gifted away three Arabic towns. I get up to 15 with a capture of another city. The Military Academy will complete on the interturn. Japan and America have a little cavalry war going on in my core.

    The Inca had declared war on the Maya. The Japanese seemed to have signed The Inca into their war against America.

    520 AD - I attack some Arabian units near a settler near a Dyes source.

    Dyes Source.jpg

    Then I capture Kurasan. I should have done the order the other way around, but oh well. It has 4 slaves in it. I decide I'm not going to disband it and just road up the coal. It already has a harbor and I can desperately use more cities. My capital has started on The Pentagon, but hopefully I will change that to an army or factory soon enough... though tech wise I really want to get Replaceable Parts sooner, because then I can upgrade to some artillery and potentially dig in for defense (the AIs won't attack a fortified infantry in a barricade with an unused artillery unit until bombers or tanks... SOMEONE PILLAGE ALL THE OIL SOURCES PLEASE). The great thing about this map is that if I capture the eastern half of this map, I only need three squares to block enough in the center to keep the eastern half of the map.

    I spawn another MGL! I rename all captured cities to the numbering scheme. Now I just might have to keep track of flips, but oh well. 17 cities, so I need three more for the next army. Yuck:

    upload_2017-4-24_23-17-26.png

    530 AD - I have two cavalry which get boxed in. Looks I can use a galleon. In the next interturn Arabia and America sign a peace treaty. The blocked area opens up for my cavalry. Egypt and Arabia sign a trade embargo against us.

    540 AD - Arabia has 60 gold. That's not good. I don't renew my RoP with Egypt. I keep on considering starting another map where I don't do this gifting trick for defense and just use cavalry/explorers to pillage if I can find a neighbor that doesn't have horses. I don't want to keep dwelling on perfecting the early stage moves... I want to at least get some understanding of how to fully handle the later stages of this sort of game. Though, at the very least thinking about strategic resources has helped this and perhaps it's better to try and keep track of jungle, forests, and marsh squares on the map as much as you can. I've made a little chart to refer to which types of squares can have a resource (if the civilopedia is correct on this point, I don't recall) which I plan on keeping next to my computer, so I can look that up more easily than checking the civliopedia. Early RoPs paying with some lump sums, thus may be well worth it, if they make a blind timely pillage possible.

    Spot something:

    upload_2017-4-24_23-59-49.png

    But Egypt:

    upload_2017-4-25_0-1-7.png

    Japan has Replaceable Parts, but doesn't have industrialization yet.

    Huh the Maya?: upload_2017-4-25_0-3-58.png

    I guess I can't tell yet.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2017
  18. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Ohio
    Have a look at America:

    upload_2017-4-25_0-16-0.png

    upload_2017-4-25_0-16-38.png

    Or maybe a further away shot:

    upload_2017-4-25_0-17-20.png

    Admittedly, I know nothing for certain, but my guess would be that they have the most loaded territory for oil and rubber. Oil appears in tundra (non-existent on this map), desert, and marsh. Rubber appears in jungles, forests, and marsh. Uranium appears in mountains and forests. Aluminum in hills and tundra. The Maya walked over my territory in the middle ages and declared on America, I think (they also demanded 100 gold and my territory map at one point, which I paid in full). Did the Japanese declare on them? I have to wonder if there exists some sort of correlation between the tendency of an AI to declare on an opponent and their availability of advanced resources such as rubber or oil or uranium or some combination of the above. If so, that might have it's uses. Anything around in the archives about that here?
     
  19. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

    Joined:
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    4,788
    Location:
    Ohio
    Here's a look at Egypt:

    upload_2017-4-25_0-30-51.png

    The AI sometimes build in this wide spacing pattern and sometimes not so much. They ignored the possibility of using 4 mountain squares, but roaded them up. Something about a uranium source maybe? They went all the way up near the Incan capital of Cuzco. I mean, I'm assuming Lisht an Egyptian name and Wikipedia says that the real Lisht is some city in Egypt. Sure, Egypt has better start than the Inca by a mile. But does uranium or aluminum lie in those mountains or hills up near Lisht?

    Does the AI roading a forest, jungle, or marsh square suggest some sort of clue about where some advanced resource lies?
     
  20. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

    Joined:
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    Location:
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    If I had managed to get out military from elsewhere, the solution to my city problem in the above could have been had by running the capital as a 1 turn worker pump once a republic, and then running it as a 2 turn settler pump during my golden age for 10 settlers. I don't know if I can get out enough military timely enough though if I do that at this level, especially if I put up markets and banks. Maybe forego the banks until later? That would make it harder to purchase tech though.

    10 settlers makes for a good start on specialist farms, and if I can ICS near cities that I'm sure to keep, then I don't need or want to park fast military units next to a city, I can put them in the newly founded city. Maybe they get forested and chopped barracks for quicker healing in a more convenient place? Or maybe they go with explorers and then workers/settlers.

    For the 1 turn worker pump/2 turn settler pump during the golden age, playing as non-agriculture if I have two cows, three bonus grasslands, and what I'll call a "bumpy" (hill or mountain) I can put out a worker every turn size 5 to 6 in a Republic or Monarchy. The Great Library in this way seems even more attractive. If I have 4 of the cows/bonus grasslands irrigated and one mined, that makes for 7 shields per turn visible at size 5 and 10 surplus food in the box. Then with the bumpy used on growth, that makes for 10 shields in the box every turn. 7 shields with 5 tiles worked makes for 12 shields per turn in a golden age. And a bumpy puts the capital to 16 on the first turn. So clearly, there could exist some tile redistribution to other cities if running a two-turn settler factory during a golden age. The bumpy might not even need mined if it has iron, and in such a case it doesn't seem to make sense to mine it.

    Such a 1 turn worker pump doesn't need a bank or market. And you keep growing at the rate of a pre size 6 city with a granary, which can close the growth gap a bit. The weakened commerce of the capital may get partially offset by increased commerce of surrounding cities. Those surrounding cities also potentially have better tile selection since the capital wouldn't use so many squares. And they can use more tiles closer to the capital, leaving their outer tiles more open for outer cities to use, thus if they don't have outer borders, they still might get to size 12 or near size tile, if flips don't happen. Or if those cities are coastal, they can more readily use productive tiles.

    I might consider options to either use workers to grow those inner ring cities quickly on a turn or use the workers for tile development. I might manage to get more exact builds on markets or knights or maybe even cannons or cavalry in this way by considering whether I add in workers or work tiles, with workers constantly running out from my capital.

    The 1 turn worker pump also seems to fit with workers running out from the center roading to the edge cities first, so that I can immediately do something with workers rather than just moving every turn. Those edge cities seem all the more likely to need a courthouse to produce shields, and thus have great benefits from earlier forestry and chops.

    What would I do with a two-turn settler pump after the golden age? Do I put it back as a 1 turn worker pump or do I have it produce military? Or does it then build The Military Academy and then armies, a factory or coal plant possibly also, since it didn't ever have barracks? It sounds like a later build on the Military Academy, but then barracks once built keep getting used elsewhere.

    Maybe I have a special inner ring city which doesn't put out knights. It just puts out artillery type units. Then it puts up The Military Academy once a leader becomes available... or maybe I start a pre-build on the Military Academy when I get my first elite victory? Or when I start the first war? Drazek seems to have had a pre-build on the Military Academy before he even has his forces ready to go to war. But too early of a prebuild can waste shields, because of some unpredictability of the first MGL. I didn't even consider a pre-build in my histographic games, because I mainly cash rushed armies and used a second MGL to build the Military Academy.

    Here's a picture from a start I've decided to abandon:

    upload_2017-4-26_8-46-40.png

    It strikes me as strange to put Vitcos further away from iron. But, when I checked CrPViewer with the resource filter off (I've abandoned that game) Vitcos lies on the unique river tile where after territorial expansion, it can obtain both the iron and a source of uranium in a forest. Now, a further away spacing doesn't always seem to imply another resource. But, I think the general city spacing pattern of the AIs is CxxxxC. Vitcos is beyond CxxxxC spacing, though there exist a bunch of mountains north of it. Maybe there exists hints about advanced resources if the AIs settle off of their normal city spacing pattern. Though, maybe mountains change things up.
     

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