Status: Orders due Sunday 30th June. New players always welcome.
Introduction:
This NES is set in the 5th Century BC, immediately after the Peace of Nicias is agreed in 421 BC, but before it is implemented. Each turn will be one year long, running from March to March. The terms of the treaty have not been enforced. If you want an update zero, we are at Thucydides V.20. The Peace Treaty, along with some diplomacy, is shown in posts 7 and 8 below.
Update links:
Update 1 (March 421-March 420)
Update 2 (March 420-March 419)
Update 3 (March 419-March 417)
Economics and Stats:
We live in a world operating without the use of money as far as most things are concerned - and in most states there is no regular taxation to speak of, and soldiers buy arms with the produce of their own land, and armies feed themselves by plundering. Therefore, in this NES, instead of having money to spend each turn, your stats tell you how many armed men (hoplites, in the case of southern Greek city states) you have. You may assume that for each of these armed men there will be one lightly armed javelinman or stone-thrower or archer accompanying him, who is ignored in the stats (although the exact numbers of light troops that turn up to fight will vary according to various different factors).
When you order a domestic project of any sort, such as - say - building a temple, then it will take however long it takes, which may be several turns, depending on the size of the city and the number of labourers who can be spared for the purpose. If you order a project and it cannot be completed within the turn, I will hold its completion over to the next turn(s). By and large, you cannot do much to hurry such projects: you just have to wait until they are finished. Equally, if you send your army on an expedition, then there will be fewer people left in the city to carry out any project you need to be done at home - because, by and large, your workforce consists of the men in the army.
If your population is not on a military campaign and if you have not ordered some special project to be carried out, then your population's efforts cannot be banked in any fashion. However, their efforts will probably go into private enterprise of some variety, and you will find that your city is more likely to become more prosperous in general, and if this happens you will tend to find that things will get done in future a bit more quickly or to a higher quality than they otherwise would have got done, or you will find your soldiers able to fight better because they are well-fed and well-equipped, or you might find people immigrating to your city, or you might find that some of your poorer citizens are able to equip themselves as hoplites.
The above is not quite true of Athens, which does have a treasury with a given amount of silver in it. Even Athens, though, does not need to allocate spending here: the treasury will simply fill or empty depending on what the treasury orders.
Remember that a large-scale hoplite battle in the ancient world is a bloody affair, and might cripple your state for a generation if you lose drastically: you shouldn't take such battles on lightly, and you should probably consider making peace at the first opportunity if you dramatically lose a battle, in order to avoid being totally conquered.
Prosperity:
In your stats, you will find an indication of Prosperity. This can be increased by the construction of civic amenities and other reasons for people to frequent your city, by the conquest of neighbouring states or their subjection to some kind of commercial hegemony, by the exaction of wealth from your neighbours in the form of tribute or other methods, and in various other ways. Prosperity will be decreased if your territory is plundered, if you lose territory, if you come under the commercial domination of another power, or for various other reasons. Changes in trade routes, if such changes occur, are also likely to cause changes in prosperity levels. If large numbers of your people are killed in battle or otherwise (e.g. plague or natural disaster), that will also affect your prosperity.
States that have a force of full-time soldiers (Sparta and Argos at present) will find that this causes their prosperity stat to be lower than it otherwise would be, on the basis that these soldiers are not themselves engaged in the creation of wealth, by and large.
Prosperity is, very approximately, a relative indication of wealth per capita.
Prosperity is directly linked to population growth: if you have a prosperity of 1, you are unlikely to get population growth to speak of; if you have a high prosperity, that means that people would like to immigrate to your country (although many states, notably Athens and Sparta, have restrictive citizenship criteria, meaning that people cannot immigrate so easily), and your natural birth rate will likely be higher.
Manpower figures will be updated at least every five turns.
Please note that immigration is not sufficient under almost any circumstances to allow continuous war. If you remain at war the whole time, it is likely that, given the potential for large numbers of casualties, you will find your population shrinking.
Although long periods of peace will generally increase your prosperity, a given area of territory can only hold so many people: if you remain at peace for a very long time, you may find your land becoming overpopulated, in which case your prosperity will decrease, reducing population growth; in such a way, any overpopulation will probably solve itself. However, you may wish to make use of the extra population to found a colony, or to move some of your population to a second population centre in your current territory, or to go to war - and if you do one of these things in such circumstances, your prosperity will be likely to increase again, allowing further population growth.
Stores:
Although you do not have taxation, as such, there are a variety of possible situations in which you might acquire some kind of movable civic or state property. This might include war plunder, or goods that you have acquired by some other method. Goods of value might include quantities of metal or timber, for instance, or you might have some piece of treasure or useful equipment. You can order your people to find or collect for you any goods that you like in the same way that you can ask them to build a temple, or something, and they will fill your stores with as much of it as they can find or spare. Such goods can obviously be given away, built into something else, exchanged for some other goods with traders, or you can order your people to use them in whatever other way you see fit.
You can't hold infinite amounts of property, and if you amass huge quantities of wood or metal for no particular reason, it will probably be a waste of labour, and there is always a risk of things being stolen or being damaged.
I will add any such items that you acquire as an extra stat in your stats.
If you want to construct something, you only actually need to acquire stocks of something if you can't access the goods you need quickly or readily enough to build it. So, for instance, most places have more than enough normal stone and wood ready at hand to build a dockyard. You would only need to get the materials in question together beforehand if you knew you wanted to build a dockyard very quickly at some point in the future, or if you wanted to build it in some place where there are no materials available.
Orders:
What I need each turn is
(a) a precise allocation of exactly what troops are to go exactly where
(b) when in the year they are meant to be setting out and what they are going to do on the way there
(c) clear instructions on how you are going to supply the troops if the campaign covers a long distance (and if no instructions are given, soldiers will attempt to feed themselves by pillaging or quartering themselves on local inhabitants if they run out of food)
(d) what military strategy they are going to follow, in terms of avoiding/giving battle and where, and in terms of exactly what towns/places they are going to try to attack in what order
(e) how they are going to fight these battles/sieges/etc. in terms of tactics (the more specific the better). If you capture an enemy city, I need to know what you are going to do with it.
(f) what projects, if any, labour at home ought to engage itself on
(g) any policies, contingencies, etc. that you wish to follow (and I do highly recommend that you send contingencies if there's a possibility that someone might attack you).
I welcome sneaky ideas, treachery, espionage, etc. The Classical Greeks seem to have liked it, so I do too!
Example Orders:
Example Stats:
Internal divisions:
You, as a player, represent the assembly of the voting population of a single city-state at most, or you might be representing an oligarchic government, or you might be a king. At any rate, very few of the powerful states in Greece actually control directly most of the manpower resources that they can harness, and much of many states' power relies on them being given continuous help by their neighbours. Not all your allied neighbours will necessarily help you all the time, and this will depend on their own interests, and many of them are essentially independent and may consider themselves entitled to leave your alliance if they want to: you can only ever entirely rely on the troops that are actually your own.
These allied neighbours that many states have are represented in the stats. You can tell when a particular force of troops is not directly under the player's control, because next to their name it will give in brackets an indication of their stance towards the player.
Rebelling - Disloyal - Resentful - Apathetic - Sympathetic - Loyal - Grateful - Unquestioning
Troops that are "disloyal" or "resentful" would probably be leaving your alliance if they weren't held to it by some form of force, and they are fairly likely to be unreliable when fighting for you. Troops that are apathetic are allies who will help you if they think they are obliged to or if it is in their interests, but probably not otherwise. Sympathetic allies are allies who are positively friendly. Loyal allies/subjects consider themselves obliged to follow your instructions. Grateful allies/subjects will eagerly follow you. If allies/subjects are "unquestioning", they can be relied upon practically as if they were your own citizens.
Internal divisions, between the city states or areas that are under the influence or control of a single power or that belong to a single League, are indicated in most cases by white boundaries on the map.
Troops from one particular state may have different varieties. Going through some standard types from best to worst:
- Epilektoi are essentially professional soldiers or specially trained picked troops, armed as hoplites are, but significantly more skilled. Among these, Spartiates, the full citizens of Sparta, are especially famous for being the most thoroughly trained soldiers in Greece.
- Hoplites are the standard heavily armoured Greek infantryman, armed with a large bronze shield, a long spear and a sword.
- Peltasts are light infantry, but often quite skilled light infantry, found mostly in northern Greece, armed with a javelin, sword, and small shield. Especially in large numbers or in uneven terrain they can defeat hoplites.
- Poor-quality infantry tends to refer to peasant leavies, generally with little training and weaponry that may be makeshift or poorly made.
Also:
- Cavalry are generally not employed by most states in the Peloponnese, including Sparta, but are found elsewhere. Generally, these cavalry have a spear, a breastplate and a helmet. They aren't really any good head on head against a hoplite phalanx, but only really come into their own if they can get round the sides or rear of a formation, if they are fighting other cavalry or light troops, or if they are chasing down stragglers.
- Slingers are employed traditionally by a few cities, who may have forces of them in the stats.
As I mentioned above, you can assume that for each of these armed men there will be approximately one lightly armed javelinman or stone-thrower or archer accompanying him, who is ignored in the stats. If you particularly need archers for some purpose you can give an instruction to this effect. However, please note that getting extra bows ready (or getting special equipment of any sort) takes time, and so if you specify substantial numbers of archers (or any other complicated preparation) and order the army in question to leave home early in the year, then you will either find that the large numbers of archers don't materialise, or that the army leaves late.
You cannot "raise extra troops" in addition to the troops in your stats: the troops listed in your stats represent your entire possible fighting population.
Religion:
If you act on the assumption that the gods are real and can help you, they may well do so!
If you wish to consult an oracle, such as the famous one at Delphi, about a question, you can do that too; I will provide you with an answer.
Declaring war:
You may not attack anyone without giving some form of warning on the thread in good time. Sneak attacks will be considered to be breaking the rules. The reason for this is that no-one in Ancient Greece could possibly get together an army or attack anyone without everyone else noticing.
If you attack someone without saying so, or declare your intentions excessively close to the deadline, you can expect it to either go wrong, not happen at all, or get delayed right at the end of the year.
Introduction:
This NES is set in the 5th Century BC, immediately after the Peace of Nicias is agreed in 421 BC, but before it is implemented. Each turn will be one year long, running from March to March. The terms of the treaty have not been enforced. If you want an update zero, we are at Thucydides V.20. The Peace Treaty, along with some diplomacy, is shown in posts 7 and 8 below.
Update links:
Update 1 (March 421-March 420)
Update 2 (March 420-March 419)
Update 3 (March 419-March 417)
Economics and Stats:
We live in a world operating without the use of money as far as most things are concerned - and in most states there is no regular taxation to speak of, and soldiers buy arms with the produce of their own land, and armies feed themselves by plundering. Therefore, in this NES, instead of having money to spend each turn, your stats tell you how many armed men (hoplites, in the case of southern Greek city states) you have. You may assume that for each of these armed men there will be one lightly armed javelinman or stone-thrower or archer accompanying him, who is ignored in the stats (although the exact numbers of light troops that turn up to fight will vary according to various different factors).
When you order a domestic project of any sort, such as - say - building a temple, then it will take however long it takes, which may be several turns, depending on the size of the city and the number of labourers who can be spared for the purpose. If you order a project and it cannot be completed within the turn, I will hold its completion over to the next turn(s). By and large, you cannot do much to hurry such projects: you just have to wait until they are finished. Equally, if you send your army on an expedition, then there will be fewer people left in the city to carry out any project you need to be done at home - because, by and large, your workforce consists of the men in the army.
If your population is not on a military campaign and if you have not ordered some special project to be carried out, then your population's efforts cannot be banked in any fashion. However, their efforts will probably go into private enterprise of some variety, and you will find that your city is more likely to become more prosperous in general, and if this happens you will tend to find that things will get done in future a bit more quickly or to a higher quality than they otherwise would have got done, or you will find your soldiers able to fight better because they are well-fed and well-equipped, or you might find people immigrating to your city, or you might find that some of your poorer citizens are able to equip themselves as hoplites.
The above is not quite true of Athens, which does have a treasury with a given amount of silver in it. Even Athens, though, does not need to allocate spending here: the treasury will simply fill or empty depending on what the treasury orders.
Remember that a large-scale hoplite battle in the ancient world is a bloody affair, and might cripple your state for a generation if you lose drastically: you shouldn't take such battles on lightly, and you should probably consider making peace at the first opportunity if you dramatically lose a battle, in order to avoid being totally conquered.
Prosperity:
In your stats, you will find an indication of Prosperity. This can be increased by the construction of civic amenities and other reasons for people to frequent your city, by the conquest of neighbouring states or their subjection to some kind of commercial hegemony, by the exaction of wealth from your neighbours in the form of tribute or other methods, and in various other ways. Prosperity will be decreased if your territory is plundered, if you lose territory, if you come under the commercial domination of another power, or for various other reasons. Changes in trade routes, if such changes occur, are also likely to cause changes in prosperity levels. If large numbers of your people are killed in battle or otherwise (e.g. plague or natural disaster), that will also affect your prosperity.
States that have a force of full-time soldiers (Sparta and Argos at present) will find that this causes their prosperity stat to be lower than it otherwise would be, on the basis that these soldiers are not themselves engaged in the creation of wealth, by and large.
Prosperity is, very approximately, a relative indication of wealth per capita.
Prosperity is directly linked to population growth: if you have a prosperity of 1, you are unlikely to get population growth to speak of; if you have a high prosperity, that means that people would like to immigrate to your country (although many states, notably Athens and Sparta, have restrictive citizenship criteria, meaning that people cannot immigrate so easily), and your natural birth rate will likely be higher.
Manpower figures will be updated at least every five turns.
Please note that immigration is not sufficient under almost any circumstances to allow continuous war. If you remain at war the whole time, it is likely that, given the potential for large numbers of casualties, you will find your population shrinking.
Although long periods of peace will generally increase your prosperity, a given area of territory can only hold so many people: if you remain at peace for a very long time, you may find your land becoming overpopulated, in which case your prosperity will decrease, reducing population growth; in such a way, any overpopulation will probably solve itself. However, you may wish to make use of the extra population to found a colony, or to move some of your population to a second population centre in your current territory, or to go to war - and if you do one of these things in such circumstances, your prosperity will be likely to increase again, allowing further population growth.
Stores:
Although you do not have taxation, as such, there are a variety of possible situations in which you might acquire some kind of movable civic or state property. This might include war plunder, or goods that you have acquired by some other method. Goods of value might include quantities of metal or timber, for instance, or you might have some piece of treasure or useful equipment. You can order your people to find or collect for you any goods that you like in the same way that you can ask them to build a temple, or something, and they will fill your stores with as much of it as they can find or spare. Such goods can obviously be given away, built into something else, exchanged for some other goods with traders, or you can order your people to use them in whatever other way you see fit.
You can't hold infinite amounts of property, and if you amass huge quantities of wood or metal for no particular reason, it will probably be a waste of labour, and there is always a risk of things being stolen or being damaged.
I will add any such items that you acquire as an extra stat in your stats.
If you want to construct something, you only actually need to acquire stocks of something if you can't access the goods you need quickly or readily enough to build it. So, for instance, most places have more than enough normal stone and wood ready at hand to build a dockyard. You would only need to get the materials in question together beforehand if you knew you wanted to build a dockyard very quickly at some point in the future, or if you wanted to build it in some place where there are no materials available.
Orders:
What I need each turn is
(a) a precise allocation of exactly what troops are to go exactly where
(b) when in the year they are meant to be setting out and what they are going to do on the way there
(c) clear instructions on how you are going to supply the troops if the campaign covers a long distance (and if no instructions are given, soldiers will attempt to feed themselves by pillaging or quartering themselves on local inhabitants if they run out of food)
(d) what military strategy they are going to follow, in terms of avoiding/giving battle and where, and in terms of exactly what towns/places they are going to try to attack in what order
(e) how they are going to fight these battles/sieges/etc. in terms of tactics (the more specific the better). If you capture an enemy city, I need to know what you are going to do with it.
(f) what projects, if any, labour at home ought to engage itself on
(g) any policies, contingencies, etc. that you wish to follow (and I do highly recommend that you send contingencies if there's a possibility that someone might attack you).
I welcome sneaky ideas, treachery, espionage, etc. The Classical Greeks seem to have liked it, so I do too!
Example Orders:
Orders for Mantinea, 422:
Build a new temple in Mantinea to Parrhasian Apollo. It should be fairly small and inexpensive, but modelled on the existing temple to Parrhasian Apollo at Bassae in Phigalean territory. This is intended to make the Parrhasians seem more part of the Mantinean alliance. The money for this should be taken from Parrhasia.
Send the whole army to Orchomenos and ravage the territory. Avoid battle with the Orchomenians, but if they come out to meet us before we have ravaged a substantial amount of our territory, do battle with them as follows. Try to offer battle in an even plain with plenty of room for our larger army to outflank their smaller one, and place our best troops on the flanks (that is, the native Mantineans) with the Parrhasians and mercenaries in the centre, drawn up six men deep rather than four men deep to compensate for the increased likelihood of them running away. Place the mercenaries in the front and back ranks, both to take the brunt of the fighting and to prevent the others running away. Try to outflank the enemy on both sides with our native Mantinean troops.
If we are forced to do battle in a pass or some other place where our numbers cannot be deployed adequately, the Parrhasians will be drawn up against the enemy, again with the mercenaries at the front and back, and the Mantineans will be kept in reserve and will reinforce the line as necessary during the battle.
Example Stats:
Elis/skeptikalz!
Democracy, governed by the Assembly, the Council of 600, the Demiurgi, and the Thesmophylaces
Member of the Peloponnesian League
3200 Citizen hoplites
800 Triphylian hoplites (Apathetic)
400 Marganian, Amphidolian and Letrinian slingers (Apathetic)
Elis is a relatively small state on the west coast of the Peloponnese, most significant because of its role in hosting the Olympic Games every four years. It has various subject states to the south, in the Triphylian and other dependent cities.
Internal divisions:
You, as a player, represent the assembly of the voting population of a single city-state at most, or you might be representing an oligarchic government, or you might be a king. At any rate, very few of the powerful states in Greece actually control directly most of the manpower resources that they can harness, and much of many states' power relies on them being given continuous help by their neighbours. Not all your allied neighbours will necessarily help you all the time, and this will depend on their own interests, and many of them are essentially independent and may consider themselves entitled to leave your alliance if they want to: you can only ever entirely rely on the troops that are actually your own.
These allied neighbours that many states have are represented in the stats. You can tell when a particular force of troops is not directly under the player's control, because next to their name it will give in brackets an indication of their stance towards the player.
Rebelling - Disloyal - Resentful - Apathetic - Sympathetic - Loyal - Grateful - Unquestioning
Troops that are "disloyal" or "resentful" would probably be leaving your alliance if they weren't held to it by some form of force, and they are fairly likely to be unreliable when fighting for you. Troops that are apathetic are allies who will help you if they think they are obliged to or if it is in their interests, but probably not otherwise. Sympathetic allies are allies who are positively friendly. Loyal allies/subjects consider themselves obliged to follow your instructions. Grateful allies/subjects will eagerly follow you. If allies/subjects are "unquestioning", they can be relied upon practically as if they were your own citizens.
Internal divisions, between the city states or areas that are under the influence or control of a single power or that belong to a single League, are indicated in most cases by white boundaries on the map.
Troops from one particular state may have different varieties. Going through some standard types from best to worst:
- Epilektoi are essentially professional soldiers or specially trained picked troops, armed as hoplites are, but significantly more skilled. Among these, Spartiates, the full citizens of Sparta, are especially famous for being the most thoroughly trained soldiers in Greece.
- Hoplites are the standard heavily armoured Greek infantryman, armed with a large bronze shield, a long spear and a sword.
- Peltasts are light infantry, but often quite skilled light infantry, found mostly in northern Greece, armed with a javelin, sword, and small shield. Especially in large numbers or in uneven terrain they can defeat hoplites.
- Poor-quality infantry tends to refer to peasant leavies, generally with little training and weaponry that may be makeshift or poorly made.
Also:
- Cavalry are generally not employed by most states in the Peloponnese, including Sparta, but are found elsewhere. Generally, these cavalry have a spear, a breastplate and a helmet. They aren't really any good head on head against a hoplite phalanx, but only really come into their own if they can get round the sides or rear of a formation, if they are fighting other cavalry or light troops, or if they are chasing down stragglers.
- Slingers are employed traditionally by a few cities, who may have forces of them in the stats.
As I mentioned above, you can assume that for each of these armed men there will be approximately one lightly armed javelinman or stone-thrower or archer accompanying him, who is ignored in the stats. If you particularly need archers for some purpose you can give an instruction to this effect. However, please note that getting extra bows ready (or getting special equipment of any sort) takes time, and so if you specify substantial numbers of archers (or any other complicated preparation) and order the army in question to leave home early in the year, then you will either find that the large numbers of archers don't materialise, or that the army leaves late.
You cannot "raise extra troops" in addition to the troops in your stats: the troops listed in your stats represent your entire possible fighting population.
Religion:
If you act on the assumption that the gods are real and can help you, they may well do so!
If you wish to consult an oracle, such as the famous one at Delphi, about a question, you can do that too; I will provide you with an answer.
Declaring war:
You may not attack anyone without giving some form of warning on the thread in good time. Sneak attacks will be considered to be breaking the rules. The reason for this is that no-one in Ancient Greece could possibly get together an army or attack anyone without everyone else noticing.
If you attack someone without saying so, or declare your intentions excessively close to the deadline, you can expect it to either go wrong, not happen at all, or get delayed right at the end of the year.
Spoiler current map (419) :
Spoiler labelled map for 419 showing geographical areas and important places :
Spoiler outdated labelled map showing all the names of all states' subdivisions :
Spoiler a useful map of Northern Greece :
Spoiler a useful map of Southern Greece :