Squid Civics

Squidimp · Oct 6, 2016

A somewhat ambitious mod replacing or substantially altering all civics.

Civics are designed to be more balanced and less tiered!

The inhibiting effect of early civics has been moved to autobuildings wherever possible, leaving a single ladder civic (the former Language civic). This makes Barbarians less weak in the later game. Remaining civics can be switched between at will without tanking the nation.

In addition, there are now +2 new civic categories: Sovereignty and Values. These represent whether you are a single nation, collection of aligned states, or ethnic group of clans; and your civilisation's definition of success.

To download, simply move the Squidmods folder into MyMods in the Modules folder of C2C. It should work immediately.

Squidimp · Oct 6, 2016

Government

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Power

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Rule

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Society

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Military

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Economy

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Religion

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Currency

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Education

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Welfare

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Agriculture

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Labour

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Sanitation

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Diplomacy (formerly Language)

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Immigration

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NEW CIVICOPTION: Sovereignity

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NEW CIVICOPTION: Values
Civs recieve a +1 diplomacy bonus if they share a value

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Squidimp · Oct 6, 2016

This is an intitial release. Further changes are still to come, including: more civics, re-ordering of some civics, art changes, and civilopedia text.

As always, feedback is strongly encouraged. Balancing suggestions are welcome.

Current known problems: the AI overvalues Smuggler buildings, the AI seems to overvalue Conscription, civilopedia text died in a computer snafu and I have yet to replace it.

Dancing Hoskuld · Oct 6, 2016

You have Rule twice.

The Commander reduction in cost should also apply to the Hero units. I never play with Commanders on.

Currently units may get an initial small promotion if you are running some of the military civics - Voluntary Army and Military Training at least. These promotions are minor but give the unit a small boost in combat in certain terrains. It probably needs looking at again to match with all the terrains we have.

Thunderbrd · Oct 6, 2016

Initially, I really like the 2 new civic option categories! I can't say I'm currently familiar enough with the full range of current civics to be able to judge the rest that would be changes to the current. By working on traits right now I know that just evaluating works if you're paying close attention to every detail but to really get the feel you gotta play it. I'll be looking out for feedback.

It might be interesting to have your set as an option. Perhaps if its popular with some but unpopular with others (polarizing) we might want to go that route.

Squidimp · Oct 6, 2016

You have Rule twice.

The Commander reduction in cost should also apply to the Hero units. I never play with Commanders on.

Thanks for the catch DH, I've removed the extra.
I didn't consider that some people don't use commanders; I'll definitely bear this in mind. Heroes as an addition could work.

Currently units may get an initial small promotion if you are running some of the military civics - Voluntary Army and Military Training at least.

I am not sure where this functionality is coded. Is it python?

Thanks for the compliments, TB!
I've been test-playing the modmod myself, but obviously the more the better!
There are definitely changes I want to make to this set; most obviously there are way too many civics that just reduce maintenance! (lookin' at you, Civil Service and Regulated Economy)

I should note also that civic buildings make a huge difference, and I've tried to include them (to some extent) in the evaluation. Agora and Forum have been heavily nerfed due to their insane power (+20% military production, +10% science, +10% great people, can turn 1 citizen into Artist, Merchant, Engineer, +2 culture. The agora is insane.)

Dancing Hoskuld · Oct 7, 2016

The promotion is done in Python based on the civic when the unit is created. in Python/DancingHoskuld file InitialMilitaryPromos.py

I think the "unlimited x" specialists is a bit OP in C2C. Perhaps a maximum of 10
extra?

Thunderbrd · Oct 7, 2016

Dancing Hoskuld said:
I think the "unlimited x" specialists is a bit OP in C2C. Perhaps a maximum of 10
extra?

This makes me think. If we were to become far more restrictive about this, we may be able to even limit the # of citizen specialists. Call them laborers. Then have the default 'citizen' actually be a burden rather than a boon - 'unemployed', and not because they are putting up some sort of resistance but because the city cannot support any further work options for them. This would enable us to more accurately portray the employment environment. A lot of good ideas could further spawn from this basic adjustment in approach, no?

Would certainly add a hell of a lot of value to a building to say that it adds another available specialist slot. Would also make overpopulating more penalizing.

Squidimp · Oct 7, 2016

The promotion is done in Python based on the civic when the unit is created. in Python/DancingHoskuld file InitialMilitaryPromos.py

I think the "unlimited x" specialists is a bit OP in C2C. Perhaps a maximum of 10
extra?

I will have a dig around in the Python, I guess. Although that makes it a little less modular.

Re: the last paragraph and TB's comment; I could do +10 specialists (using autobuildings). I will, however, note that current civics use unlimited specialists frequently (unless you are using a modded version, like CivPlayer8's simple set). It does become powerful later on, but hopefully not much more powerful than a % boost?

Under current settings big cities are good cities. If this changed through, e.g. population caps (which would make Immigrants more useful as well) and the Unemployed, then big cities would only be good if you can afford to support them. If unemployed citizens were a problem, I would definitely change this.

As is, a change would require a lot of tweaking, given the Citizen bonuses and so on in this modmod.

Dancing Hoskuld · Oct 7, 2016

I was looking to move Initial Military Promotions and the Star Signs into custom XML so that while still done by python everything is available to modders to adjust. It should not be to difficult to do.

Thunderbrd · Oct 7, 2016

Squidimp said:
I will have a dig around in the Python, I guess. Although that makes it a little less modular.

Re: the last paragraph and TB's comment; I could do +10 specialists (using autobuildings). I will, however, note that current civics use unlimited specialists frequently (unless you are using a modded version, like CivPlayer8's simple set). It does become powerful later on, but hopefully not much more powerful than a % boost?

Under current settings big cities are good cities. If this changed through, e.g. population caps (which would make Immigrants more useful as well) and the Unemployed, then big cities would only be good if you can afford to support them. If unemployed citizens were a problem, I would definitely change this.

As is, a change would require a lot of tweaking, given the Citizen bonuses and so on in this modmod.

Would certainly be a project but it'd be one worth doing. DH has been complaining about unlimited specialist slots on the current civics for a while now and I just had the idea I just posted, which I think would really be a good one.

Some autobuildings with prereqs not only of civics but perhaps of other buildings, could be useful. Ex: A civic may be able to provide +1Priest for each temple. At some point I could probably build out some tags for this project but for now, stuff like that could do the trick. Not that for now we should necessarily go that complicated out the gate.

Squidimp · Oct 8, 2016

Thunderbrd said:
Would certainly be a project but it'd be one worth doing. DH has been complaining about unlimited specialist slots on the current civics for a while now and I just had the idea I just posted, which I think would really be a good one.

Autobuildings can achieve quite a lot as-is, the caveat being that they require plenty of help text for players. Without help text they are opaque without digging through the pedia (looking at you Aesop's Fables).

I may change the specialist thing, but not particularly soon; I have some more obvious issues to deal with (e.g. a complete lack of civic civilopedia text).

Thunderbrd · Oct 8, 2016

Squidimp said:
Autobuildings can achieve quite a lot as-is, the caveat being that they require plenty of help text for players. Without help text they are opaque without digging through the pedia (looking at you Aesop's Fables).

Agreed. Of course, I feel the worst offenders are civic buildings in general since you can't see what is and what is not going to be delivered in autobuilds on the civic selection screen. Very frustrating.

Dancing Hoskuld · Oct 8, 2016

Adding the the auto build buildings to the Civics adds 10 to 30 seconds to the display time of the screen because the Python needs to go through the whole list of buildings to find the ones that are civic auto builds. I could probably do that once per session but it would take up a small amount of memory. I would store a list of (civic id, building id) so it would not be too large.

Thunderbrd · Oct 8, 2016

Dancing Hoskuld said:
Adding the the auto build buildings to the Civics adds 10 to 30 seconds to the display time of the screen because the Python needs to go through the whole list of buildings to find the ones that are civic auto builds. I could probably do that once per session but it would take up a small amount of memory. I would store a list of (civic id, building id) so it would not be too large.

My lord if you could do that the wait would be SO worth it! It's so hard to really know if a civic change would be good or not and the way we change civic designs like old socks in this mod makes it really frustrating trying to keep up with those hidden details!

colonelflag · Oct 13, 2016

Hi Squidimp,

I really like the look of thees Civic changes and was playing with them fine until i updated to the latest SVN (9332) and now I get a CTD if i attempt to start a new game or load an old game with this module loaded. If I remove your module a new game starts fine. Can you replicate at all ?

Cheers
Colonelflag

Squidimp · Oct 21, 2016

colonelflag said:
I really like the look of thees Civic changes and was playing with them fine until i updated to the latest SVN (9332) and now I get a CTD if i attempt to start a new game or load an old game with this module loaded. If I remove your module a new game starts fine. Can you replicate at all ?

That's strange. I don't update my SVN very much, but I suppose the problem might be to do with changes to Civic names? I can't see any way that the buildings would cause an error, but most of the new civics replace previous civics. If those were removed it might cause a problem.

I'm afraid I won't be able to test this until I can get a stable internet connection to download the next SVN update.

Dr Roach · Dec 11, 2016

This looks cool! I always found the fact that the civics are basically tiered to be in my opinion unimaginative. Do you think it would blow stuff up if I used it with Rocks2Rockets?

Dancing Hoskuld · Dec 11, 2016

Dr Roach said:
This looks cool! I always found the fact that the civics are basically tiered to be in my opinion unimaginative. Do you think it would blow stuff up if I used it with Rocks2Rockets?

Almost certainly. There have been a lot of ew civics added and others removed since R2R split off. Buildings and other references will be off causing errors.

Dr Roach · Dec 18, 2016

Meh, won't even load anyway. It doesn't seem to load on the regular C2C either. Where should I be putting the file?

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