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Stability Guide

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall: Europe' started by AbsintheRed, Mar 9, 2016.

  1. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    As there are always many questions about stability, I'm putting all the info from the civilopedia on the forum too.

    RFCE stability guide:

    The F2 Screen
    On the F2-screen you can see the four main stability categories: cities, civics, economy, expansion and a special fifth category called swing.
    The main categories have two values: the one on the left side is the sum of all permanent modifiers and the one on the right side is a value that is calculated every turn.
    The swing category has only one value and represents effects that last only a few turns. Most of the time this value should be zero.

    All values are summed up and give the total stability or simply the stability (The value that can be seen on the main screen). This is the only value that matters in the end.

    The two ways how stability is calculated
    There are two ways in which stability is calculated: event based and state based.
    You can say the state based modifiers look at what you have (eg. total number of cities) and the event based look on how you got there (eg. if you found a city yourself or if you conquer one).

    State based modifiers
    The state based modifiers have to be updated once in a while. This is usually done every turn or every three turns or when it is obvious that the state has changed (eg. founding a city will change the total number of cities and therefore triggers a recalculation). Because they only look at the current state they can be recalculated from scratch every time. Previous values don't have to be remembered. That means if an error occures, this error can not accumulate over several calculations and the total effect of one modifier can easily be limited.
    The effects of state-based modifiers are hard to track because all effects are calculated at once.

    Event based modifiers
    The event based modifiers on the other hand can not be calculated from the scratch every time and therefore have to be remembered. This is done by storing a single number for each category. It holds the sum of all modifiers that have been triggered so far. That means those modifiers are permanent and cumulative. And that means also that errors can accumulate. And because only a single number is stored it is impossible to say how often a certain event has occured and therefore it is impossible to limit the total effect of a single modifier.
    The effect of event-based modifiers can easily be seen. Just found, conquer or raze a city and look on the F2-screen how the corresponding value has changed. Sometimes more then one event is triggered at once (eg. razing a city triggers also conquering a city)

    Useful tips
    The swing category has only event based modifiers, sometimes with rather big values.
    On the other hand it's value gets halved every turn, so it rapidly converges to zero.

    Note that one of the big permanent changes in stability happens when some of your provinces change to worse status.
    In most cases this happens when a new civ is born in or near your territory (the first example is the Arab spawn for Byzantium).

    Various special events and historic mechanisms can also effect your stability.
    For example on the reformation event: If you choose to stay catholic, you miss on the economic and scientific benefits of switching to protestantism, but the counter-reformation might bring some stability to your realm.
    Or you get a minor bonus to your stability in case you successfully complete one of your UHVs.

    List of event based stability modifiers:
    (all permanent, apart from the swing stability)

    Base stability
    -Difficulty:
    --Viceroy: +6
    --Monarch: +2
    --Emperor: 0
    -Completing one of your UHVs: +3

    Cities
    -Entering a war: -1
    -Building a courthouse: +1
    -After AI collapse date: -1 stability every 4 turns up to a total of -15 stability

    Civics
    -Building a nightwatch: +1
    -Being in anarchy: 0, -1 or -2 for each turn, based on city number (0 for Prussia)

    Expansion
    -Building a castle: +1
    -Founding a city
    --in a core province: +1
    --in a contested province: -1
    --in a foreign province: -2
    --while the number of your cities is less than 5: +1
    -Conquering a city in a core or historic province: +1
    -Conquering a city while running Militarism: +1
    -Razing a city
    --with a population of 3-5: -1
    --with a population of 6-9: -2
    --with a population of 10+: -3
    --Norwegian UP: one less instability for each raze
    -Losing a city in a core or historic province: -3 (-2 for Scotland)
    -Losing the capitol city: -10 (-20 for Byzantium, -5 for Scotland)
    -Moving the palace: -2
    -Building a colony: -2 (-1 with Colonialism)

    Economy
    -Building a manor house: +1
    -Founding a corporation: -2
    -Researching certain techs: -1
    --(Feudalism, Guilds, Machinery, Aristocracy, Nationalism,
    --Civil Service, Gunpowder, Professional Army, Economics)

    Swing
    (these values are high, but their effect gets halved every turn)
    -Being in anarchy: -8 (0 for Prussia)
    -Successful religious purge: -3 (0 for Spain)
    -Entering a war: -3
    -Razing a city: -3 (0 for Norway)
    -Own improvement got destroyed: -2
    -Moving the palace: -5
    -Conquering a city in a core or historic province: +3
    -Losing a city in a core or historic province: -4 (-2 for Scotland)
    -Losing a city in a border of foreign province: -2 (-1 for Scotland)
    -Losing the capitol city: -10 (-20 for Byzantium, -5 for Scotland)

    List of state based stability modifiers:
    (dynamic, calculated each turn)

    Cities
    -For an average city happiness of at least k: +k
    -For an average city health of at least k: +k
    -At least 10% war weariness on average (in your k cities): -k/3 - 1
    --so -1 with 1-2 cities, -2 with 3-5 cities, -3 with 6-8 cities, etc.
    -For a persecution count (nationwide) of at least 3k+1: -k-1
    --so -1 with 1-3 points, -2 with 4-6 points, -3 with 7-9 points, etc.
    --a successful purge adds 8 points to the persecution counter (4 for Spain)
    --an unsuccessful purge adds 4 points to the persecution counter (2 for Spain)
    --the persecution counter goes down with 1 point in each turn
    -For each city that
    --is unhealthy: -1
    --is unhappy (has at least one angry population): -2
    --has a foreign religion: -2 (0 for Poland, -1 for Ottomans)
    --has a foreign religion with Paganism: -1 (0 for Poland)
    --each foreign religion after the 1st one: -1 (0 for Poland)
    --any number of foreign religions with Religious Tolerance: 0
    --has a Jewish Quarter with religious penalties present in the city: +1
    --has some unhappiness because of whipping for production: -1
    --has some unhappiness because of no military presence: -1
    --has some unhappiness because of religious civics: -1 (0 for Poland)
    --has less than 40% own culture: -1 (0 for Hungary)
    --has less than 40% own culture with Subjugation: 0
    --has less than 20% own culture: -2 (0 for Hungary)
    --has less than 20% own culture with Subjugation: -1 (0 for Hungary)
    -Stability bonus for Orthodox faith points: +1 for 10 faith
    -While in a golden age: +8

    Civics
    -Feudal Monarchy with
    --the Stephansdom wonder: +2
    --Feudal Law: +3
    -Divine Monarchy with
    --the Stephansdom wonder: +2
    --Paganism: -4
    --State Religion: +2
    --Theocracy: +3
    --Organized Religion: +4
    --Religious Tolerance: -3
    --Religious Law: +2
    -Constitutional Monarchy with
    --the Stephansdom wonder: +2
    --Common Law: +3
    --Free Peasantry: +2
    --Free Labor: +2
    -Merchant Republic with
    --Feudal Law: -3
    --Trade Economy: +4
    --Common Law: +3
    --Free Peasantry: +2
    --Free Labor: +2
    --Imperialism: -2
    -Merchant Republic with k cities: 5-k (+3 with 2 cities, 0 with 5 cities, -4 with 9 cities, etc.)
    --the penalties are halved for Venice ((5-k)/2, if k>5)
    -Feudal Law with
    --Serfdom: +3
    --Manorialism: +2
    --Free Peasantry: -4
    --Vassalage: +2
    -Bureaucracy with k cities: 6-k (+4 with 2 cities, 0 with 6 cities, -3 with 9 cities, etc.)
    --the penalties are halved for Novgorod ((6-k)/2, if k>6)
    -Serfdom with
    --Manorialism: +2
    --Common Law: -3
    -Religious Law with
    --Paganism: -5
    --Theocracy: +5
    --Religious Tolerance: -3
    -Common Law with
    --Free Labor: +3
    --Theocracy: -4
    -Apprenticeship with
    --Guilds: +3

    Expansion
    -For each own city
    --in a foreign province: -5 (-4 with Imperialism)
    --in a border province: -2 (-1 with Imperialism)
    --French UP: additional +1 for each city in a border or foreign province
    -For each foreign city
    --in a core province: -3 (0 with Militarism)
    --in a normal province: -1 (0 with Militarism)
    -For each vassal: +1 (+3 with Vassalage)
    -For being a vassal of someone else: +8
    -Stability penalty for number of cities (with k cities): -(k*k)/40
    --So 0 for less than 7 cities, -1 with 7 and 8 cities, -2 with 9 and 10 cities
    ---3 with 11 and 12 cities, -4 with 13 and 14 cities, -5 with 15 city
    ---1 for each city after the 15th, -2 for each city after the 31th
    --The Ottomans and Muscovy get five cities for free

    Economy
    -Industrial Stability in your empire: between -3 and +3
    --Based on agriculture, production and industrial development
    -Financial Stability in your empire: between -4 and +4
    --Based on finances, inflation, trade and economic development
     
  2. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    I will have this thread made sticky, but feel free to ask questions or make suggestions about anything connected to stability here.
    The first post will be updated with the latest information available.
    Formatting will also be improved, but for now I won't bother with it.
     
  3. Baron03

    Baron03 Baron

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    I played three games under the newest svn versions and noticed Arabia always collapsing early on. So I detailed Arabia's stability/overall situation as I played a test game with them.

    The problem was that Arabia as an AI always collapsed early and North African cities would flip back to Byzantium. I dislike peacetime flipping because Byzantium abuses it to remain so powerful throughout the game. Ok. I start and Byzantium is going through a plague, which is normal. The problem is that the plague wiped out every defender, so al-Quds and Sur had no defenders when the flipped. This was probably the first cause of an Arabia collapse because of too few defenders against barbarians. It's an extra challenge to a human player, but unfair for the AI especially because the core territory.

    So I conquered westward and northward (Antioch, Edessa, and Barca). A few turns after conquering Barca my total stability was -7 and in 680 Barca declared independence. My total stability changed to -11. On the stability screen my cities bar was -1|-17. I recaptured Barca next turn. This happened three more times while conquering Tripoli and Tunis. Total stability would swing from -5 to -15, then back to -10 on re-conquest (the numbers varied slightly each time: 696, 708, and 744).

    I didn't build a manor house until 752 to have a control variable of sorts. So the problem, second cause for an AI Arabian collapse is culture penalties. By 768 Antioch was only 18% Arab, Barca 37% and Alexandria 32% respectively. By now there weren't anymore threats of cessation. In 832 their Arab populations were 33%, 55%, and 46% respectively.

    Conclusion: The likely plague wiping out all defending units hurts Arabia's chances of holding core cities, and lack of culture in conquered cities hurts overall stability which leads to a collapse and North African cities re-flipping to Byzantium (at least this happened in my previous three games).

    Suggestions?
    1. Maybe a conquest lag for a culture penalty, especially early civilizations like Arabia. Growing culture in an early production poor city like Barca or Antioch takes a lot of time, so the player is left with a 99% Byzantine populated city for a while which makes it prone to declaring independence.
    2. Possibly spreading culture on conquest, say 5-15%.
    3. Ensuring flipped cities have at least one defending unit. And no peaceful city flips via culture.
    4. A five turn grace period after conquering a city? Or the culture penalty doesn't count when under revolt?
    5. Or is this how it's all supposed to work? My stability eventually hovered around zero when a conquered city's culture rose above the first threshold of 20%. But that took time, and might be difficult for expansionistic UHVs.
     
  4. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    I made the same test. Now i got 3 defender in the 2 cities. Took the two cities to north then Alexandria and barca. I had -11 -12 stability during the game till 1000.AD. And it was early on. Alexandria and Barca declared independence, once each. they were unguarded, but AI manage things differently. (sometiimes AI have impressive military but do not take back an indy city near the core, rather attacks me.) Stability was around 0 till 700, +3 till 800, +5 till 900 and 5-10 till 1000.AD.
    I could make cities go up and run, economy was 5* from 800ad. but cities keept being 1* due to lots of orthodoxy cross.

    ps: plague rarely rage in the levant. mostly in eu parts and africa plus anatolia, but not in levant, still it can happen.
     
  5. Baron03

    Baron03 Baron

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    Played Arabia two more times. No plague. My second attempt I took Edessa and Alexandria (Antioch too defended). Stability went low when Edessa was no longer under post-conquest revolt. I took Barca, Tripoli, and Tunis by 700. Stability fell to -15 and I kept horse archers nearby to reconsider cities that declared independence. Tunis and Barca declared independence three times each before I took Antioch in 800. Until then my stability was hovering around -3. After I took Antioch my stability fell to -14 and Cairo and Alexandria declared independence. Antioch did the next turn leaving my stability at -20, so I ended the game there.

    My third attempt started at peace with Byzantium, so I received extra horse archers when he declared war on me. I took Antioch and Edessa within a turn of each other before going to take Alexandria. Stability leveled out at -10 for a long time as soon as Edessa went out of post-conquest revolt. I founded Domyat right before I captured Alexandria. Antioch first declared independence in 700 while I captured Barca and Tripoli. I left one horse archer outside to recapture the following turn. By the time I founded Cairo in 756, Antioch had declared independence four times. A few turns later Cairo declared independence dropping my stability from -10 to -20. I stopped two turns later when Barca declared independence and I captured Tunis.

    I noticed that after a city declares independence it's culture goes 100% independent or to its previous owner, in this case Byzantium. So re conquering was that much harder. I had a successful persecution which helped a little, but usually a city declared independence too soon for me to use it. Other than that stability is really sensitive.

    Is this partly because I conquer too fast? I like to capture Tunis by 700 AD or so.
     
  6. DC123456789

    DC123456789 Chieftain

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    Arabia should probably get a special bonus/decreased maluses for conquering in their first few turns, since that's kind of what they're supposed to do (even if the AI never manages it). It's not as if Arabia is ever too stable, after all.

    Also, cities declaring independence really shouldn't get 100% independent culture. At least some of the original civ's culture should remain there.
     
  7. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    This is the most annoying thing in the game for me. Go indy and get 10% indy culture, after it go on as it used to.
     
  8. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Yeah, that's absolutely unintentional.
    Conquest should add some culture in the city, agreed.
    If it's not doing it already, it's an oversight. Will look into it.

    And I plan to do the same with city flipping and city independence too.
    So it also only adds some minor culture boost for the new player, while keeping the originals owner's culture too.
     
  9. Swarbs

    Swarbs Chieftain

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    I think the dynamic stability for cities isn't calculating correctly. Playing as England I have:

    - No persecution
    - Seven cities, all healthy = +7
    - Two unhappy cities = -4
    - No foreign religions
    - No unhappiness from hurrying, no military or religion
    - One city with less than 20% own culture = -2

    So I should have dynamic stability of +1, but in fact I have -6.

    Similarly, as France I have:

    - No persecution
    - Nine cities, five of which are healthy = +5
    - No unhappy cities
    - No foreign religions
    - No unhappiness from hurrying, no military or religion
    - Two cities with less than 20% own culture = -4

    I should have +1, instead I have -4

    Is the bonus for health definitely being calculated? It seems to be missing at the moment and that is really screwing up stability for civs which need to expand.
     
  10. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Yeah, something felt strange about my dynamic stability values too in my last playtesting game
    Will look into this ASAP
     
  11. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Can you upload the savegames for both of those situations?
    EDIT: you meant -4 overall stability instead of +4 in your french game?
     
  12. Swarbs

    Swarbs Chieftain

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    Yes, it should have been -4, have corrected it now.

    Saves attached...
     

    Attached Files:

  13. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    It won't be popular I guess... but actually I'm thinking about changing the health bonus to health penalty

    Adding that as a bonus seems unbalanced (compared to it's current unworking status), it would basically add +1 stability for most of your cities during all of the early-mid game. Health is not too hard to get in the mod in it's current state.
    IMO it would be better to have a stability penalty if your cities are unhealthy. -1 stability for each unhealthy city.
    Also this would make health more consistent with everything else in the city stability category.

    To make excess positive health somewhat important too, I would also add something similar to the happiness bonus (so on a civilization level instead, not on a city level): +x health for your civ with +y average health in your cities.

    Any thoughts on this, or counterarguments?
     
  14. Swarbs

    Swarbs Chieftain

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    Well, assuming that I am right and that the positive health bonus isn't currently being applied, it could be done, but would need some adjustment to prevent stability becoming a chore.

    I would say if you make it so:

    Every unhealthy city gives -1 stability
    For average city health of k+1 you get +k stability
    For average city happiness of k+1 you get +k stability

    That improves the happiness bonus stability (currently 2k + 1) and adds a similar health bonus, the idea being that surplus health and happiness in some cities will counter problems in other cities, and there is still an incentive to get surplus resources.
     
  15. Swarbs

    Swarbs Chieftain

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    Also, is the foreign religion stability penalty being applied correctly? It seems the game is currently giving -2 stability for each foreign religion when running paganism, which makes the early French game very challenging when all the cities you capture have Catholicism.
     
  16. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Checked, but it adds -1 stability as far as I can tell
     
  17. DC123456789

    DC123456789 Chieftain

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    Shouldn't France start Catholic, actually?
     
  18. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    No, they don't start with any techs that enables them any Religious Civics other than Paganism.
     
  19. DC123456789

    DC123456789 Chieftain

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    Would it be possible for to have them start Catholic though?
     
  20. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Agreed, I also felt that the bonus from happiness is pretty insignificant.
    And it's always good to motivate players to trade resources :)

    If we want to go in that direction, we can just simply add them the tech for the State Religion civic too.
    But do we really want that? I thought it's fun to keep their start kinda unique, with the need to research some techs before you can finally officially promote Catholicism as your state religion.
    Which will surely spread to most of your cities by then, as you have contact with the Pope, and pretty big religion spread modifiers :)
     

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