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Stability

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall: Europe' started by Veshta, May 1, 2011.

  1. yogiebere

    yogiebere Civilization City Planner

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    Good lord, this is a serious problem. What if I dont like the city available to me in the recently captured territory - razing it gives me a penalty. How about going after rogue city states nearby that are spawning annoying ships - I get a penalty.

    They need to be split up into permanent and non permanent.

    Permanent would be things like +1 for the city buildings (castle, manor house etc) as long as you keep that building/the city its in. Also colony bonuses and researching those techs (still unsure why they have a penalty).

    I think just about everything else should be temporary (last for 5 turns, or the effect dwindles like the swing, but maybe not as quickly dwindling). Otherwise seemingly in-the-moment things like razing a city, entering a war, and moving the capitol hurt you in the long run.
     
  2. Caliom

    Caliom Chieftain

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    I agree with you that -2 is hard for small cities. Mabye the penalty should scale with city size. With now penalty for small cities, around size 1-4.

    But i wouldn't remove it completly because i think flavour wise it should give a penalty. Razing a city means that you kill a lot of innocent people. That cannot be unseen by your own people.

    If you don't want the control over a city yourself then you should give it to someone else. I'd rather see the improvemnts here than removing the penalty for razing. Razing a city should be the last option. Some kind of puppet state would be cool, like the way you grant independence to colonies in bts, where a new civ spawns as your vassal. But i think this would include much more work than just enabling the bts modus, because those civs shouldnt have UHVs, you need aropriate names, etc.
    But for the beginning it would be ok if you could gift a city to the independent civs, because sometimes there are no civs alive you could gift a city to.


    Remember that when you race a city, the modifiers for conquering a city get also applied. That means you can decrease the penalty by 1 when you run Militarism.
    This also leads to the oddity that razing a city in a solid province has a lesser penalty than razing a city in a province that is far far away (because you get the +1 for conquering a city in a solid province) I think this should be fixed!

    You want to remove all negative permanent modifiers but keep all positive ones, that makes no sense to me.
    I think there should be penalties for some things you do. If you can't handle the stability drop then don't do it.
    As those penalties are event based they have to be permanent. A flexible limit to the duration would be cool but this is much more work to implement. Making them permanent is just easy to implement. I think it is ok, and you have all those buildings to counter that.
    Before BETA9 there where even more permanent modifiers. I think it is going in the right direction now.
     
  3. Caliom

    Caliom Chieftain

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    I think this is a left over from Rhye's original mod.
    The tech penalty is probably only for flavour (certain technologies had a greater impact on the daily life of people than others and somehow they got angry at their rulers). Gameplay wise it makes no sense to me, because all nations suffer those penalties and it doesn't affect any of my actions.
    The corporation penalty is there to offset the huge benefit of a corporation. That's at least what a comment in the code says. But then it should be better attached to the one who controls the headquarter, not the one who founds it. Thats what i think. Or remove it completly.
     
  4. 3Miro

    3Miro Chieftain

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    As noted, there are four and one half categories. Cities, Civics, Economy, Expansion and the special Swing stability. Swing resets very quickly, so -2 points for pillaging improvements is not that bad. You will have to pillage really a lot of improvements over a very short period of time (2 - 3 turns and at least 10 - 15 improvements) to make a significant difference.

    For each of the regular categories, you have permanent and temporary modifiers that can be either positive or negative (also note that Expansion wights a bit more as you can gain/lose more points from it than other cats). In all cases, permanent boosts come from building the corresponding buildings (night watch, court house, manor house, castle).

    Economy loses stability from some techs, however, those techs do give boosting building and/or they are associated with big changes the Medieval Economy. At any rate, if we remove that, then what event should cause permanent loss of Economic stability?

    Note that in the original RFC, Economic stability is the biggest "voodoo". We have all played RFC and it does work, however, the logic behind Economic stability doesn't make sense.
     
  5. pauluslupus

    pauluslupus Chieftain

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    Location:
    PreŇ°ov, Slovensko
    Hi, I just wonder, if the random flipping of single city to independent is result of negative stability.
     
  6. stemcnally2000

    stemcnally2000 Chieftain

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    Oct 2, 2011
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    Location:
    Yorkshire, England
    Is there no option to cheat re stability of this mod? The other RFC mod i play has the Crtl+Shift+Q then Shift+S option to cheat on the stability.
    I know, I'm a dirty, terrible cheater :p
     
  7. stemcnally2000

    stemcnally2000 Chieftain

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    Location:
    Yorkshire, England
    Is there no option to cheat re stability on this mod? The other RFC mod i play has the Crtl+Shift+Q then Shift+S option to cheat on the stability.
    I know, I'm a dirty, terrible cheater :p
     
  8. Tigranes

    Tigranes Armenian

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    Sep 11, 2008
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    8,351
    I don't think that the final number is the simple sum of all the visible numbers. There are many other hidden modifiers.

    But generally speaking, this guide must find it's way into Pedia. I am a big fun of Stability concept, I wish they create a symbol for it for this forums, like for :strength:, or :move:, or :health: . I am constantly feeling like checking the Pedia, not Internet, while micromanaging the stability of my Empire. One strange thing about stability from happiness though -- culture slider never improves the stability even though you get more happy faces. This is unfortunate, because it could encourage to use the culture slider in very bad stability situations, so Rhye's mechanics would naturally fuse with Fraxis' mechanics.
     
  9. 3Miro

    3Miro Chieftain

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    There are many variables involved in the stability and city happiness is only one of them. The happy slider does affect your stability, it is just that the affect is soft-capped in RFC and hard-capped in RFCE, so if your cities are already happy, this will not help you much.

    If you are at war and suffering from war unhappiness, then the slider will help significantly.
     
  10. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

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    @ Caliom

    Can you update this list? I'm adding the stability guide to the Civilopedia, but this guide is a bit outdated.
     
  11. Caliom

    Caliom Chieftain

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    The list seems to be up to date.

    stability.py has not been changed since Mai 5. 2011.
    I also saw no entry in ChangeLog.txt that refers to stability since then.

    @3Miro: can you confirm this?


    however i fixed some typos and added some UPs that i had overseen before.
    -iUP_StabilitySettler for Portugal and Norse
    -iUP_ReligiousTolerance for Poland
    -iUP_CulturalTolerance for Hungary and France
     
  12. 3Miro

    3Miro Chieftain

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    Hm, sounds right. Maybe it is time to change this. I think tweaking the penalty for razing cities to depend on the size, like cities below 5 get only 1 point penalty, while cities of size 12 or above get 3 points penalty.
     
  13. Caliom

    Caliom Chieftain

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    Why do you think that? Did the simple sum of all visible numbers ever differ from the final number in your games?

    in game most modifiers are hidden. The numbers in the five categories are already sums on their own. I do not know of any moddifier that isn't already represented in one of those categories, and i see no reason why it shouldn't be the simple sum ;)
     
  14. 3Miro

    3Miro Chieftain

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    Total stability is just the sum of all 5 categories. Some nations have a stability boost on start, but it is not hidden, it is reflected in both F2 screen and the main screen.
     
  15. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    I agree, that sounds like a good addition
    Also, I have a few questions/reports/possible bugs based on playtesting:

    - When your empire is already big (10+ cities), and you capture and raze an enemy city. First your stability goes down when entering the city (number of cities + new city in unstable/ok province penalty), like it was an addition to your empire. But then you raze it, and the stability further goes down, by the city razing penalty!!
    Tried to test if it's only a hidden modifier, but seemingly both negativ stability modifiers stays. So, instead of the normal -2 stability for city razing you actually get something between -6 and -10 (depending on the size of your empire and on the province being unstable or OK)

    - Imperialism civic should give bonus simply by having cities outside core area, right? In my experience I only got the +1 stability when actually build those cities, simply having them wasn't enough

    - I'm not totally sure on this, but about city liberation:
    It's rather annoying when you liberate a city, and get a stability penalty for this
    City liberation should never cost in your stability. If you can and willing to liberate a city, why should we penalize this?
    Also, an idea: Shouldn't this be dependent on whether the target city is in the given civ's core area?
    So gifting away/liberating cities don't add anything if they are in the "wrong" area, but giving +1 stability if it's in the core area
     
  16. 3Miro

    3Miro Chieftain

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    I will look into this. The issues may be due to stability not being recalculated properly after the city is founded/razed (i.e. exactly when do we call the function). Another possible issue comes from the dynamic provinces, if you capture a city in a stable province, only then does a province truly become stable. If the enemy has cities in it, then you will be hit with that penalty right when you capture the city.
     
  17. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    I agree, it's probably about the stability not being recalculated
    First you get your stability loss with the onCityAcquired function (it recalculates your stability as if you have one more cities)
    Then you get an additional stability loss for actually razing the city (I found a bug in the onCityRazed function, now it works fine)
    So, you get that -2 stability for city razing, like you should.
    The problem is that the previous function doesn't refresh, and your expansion stability somehow remains calculated with +1 cities AND one razed city
     
  18. 3Miro

    3Miro Chieftain

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    onCityRazed should be calling the function to recalculate the expansion stability. Maybe the bug was causing it to fail or maybe the razed city isn't removed from the player's list of cities until later (so when the expansion stability is recalculated it is still with +1 city). In the second scenario we should add something in the code to recalculate the expansion stability at the end of the players' turn (before the secession or collapse functions are called).
     
  19. Spirictum

    Spirictum Immortal

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    In the light of the byzbug I took my time to discover how to deal with this strange concept called Stability, and IMHO some things have to be done:

    The byzbug is a minor display problem that corrects itself after the first city founding by the byzantine, so it's actually a minor bug and doesn't affect gameplay at all (it may only scare some people like me and make they think the game is cheating against them).

    I have just tested a french game and tried to finally discover if I was right about Stephansdom +2 Stability Bonus not being working properly. And indeed, I was a Feudal Monarchy and WBed Stephansdom. Nothing changed under the Civic column of Stability. I passed the turn, and still nothing happened. I reloaded to actually build Stephansdom and the same result in the turn and in the following one. I tried with all 3 monarchies, not one gave me the bonus (with limited monarchy I gained 2 pts in Economy in the following turn, but Stephansdom bonus should be in the Civics column, so it's probably another thing)

    And a major redesigning of permanent and temporary stability bonus/penalties should be discussed. For example: -1 permanent stability for each DoW (or entry in a war, not sure if it's only applied when you declare war) may become a total mess, and seems unreal. It's strange to think my stability in 1760 AD is being affected by the war I declared against the Norse in 1050 AD being the Spanish (imagine the Arab with their last UHV and one of the earliest spawns).

    This is a really good idea, was this implemented yet? But honestly, why permanent? So if I razed Burdigala with the french in 540 AD I would still suffer from this in 1700 AD? Even if I was forced to raze (1-pop city) and rebuild it (because it's a good spot for a french city)?

    Was this corrected? I never raze cities (only with the Norse for obvious reasons) so I'm not sure.

    And this? It's a really good idea Absinthe. BTW, why not letting Imperialism without a cap? Honestly, there is not a single game where I don't change to Militarism ASAP and never change it anymore, just because it doesn't have a cap.

    I guess the part of liberating a city was changed as you suggested, but the second suggestion seems nice and I think it wasn't implemented. This would make "Saving Wars" a lot more common, something that really happened in Europe. BTW the AI should know and use this.

    A detailed guide about this would be a great advantage.

    BTW, is the cap for vassals because of Stability? I can't understand why RFCE has a cap for vassals.
     
  20. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Stability guide updated:



    List of event based modifiers / permanent stability:[\H1]

    [BOLD]Base stability[\BOLD]
    [TAB]Viceroy: 6
    [TAB]Monarch: 2
    [TAB]Emperor: 0

    [BOLD]Cities[\BOLD]
    [TAB]Entering a war: -1
    [TAB]Building a courthouse: +1
    [TAB]After AI collapse date: -1 stability every 4 turns up to a total of -15 stability

    [BOLD]Civics[\BOLD]
    [TAB]Building a nightwatch: +1
    [TAB]Being in anarchy: -1 or -2 for each turn, based on city number (0 for Prussia)

    [BOLD]Expansion[\BOLD]
    [TAB]Building a castle: +1
    [TAB]Founding a city
    [TAB][TAB]in a core or historic province: +1
    [TAB][TAB]in a border or foreign province: -2 (0 for Portugal)
    [TAB][TAB]while the number of your cities is less than 5: +1
    [TAB]Conquering a city in a core or historic province: +1
    [TAB]Conquering a city while running Militarism: +1
    [TAB]Razing a city: -2 (-1 for Norway)
    [TAB]Losing a city in a core or historic province: -3 (-2 for Scotland)
    [TAB]Losing the capitol city: -10 (-20 for Byzantium, -5 for Scotland)
    [TAB]Moving the palace: -2
    [TAB]Building a colony: -2 (-1 with Colonialism)

    [BOLD]Economy[\BOLD]
    [TAB]Building a manor house: +1
    [TAB]Founding a corporation: -2
    [TAB]Researching certain techs: -1
    [TAB][TAB](Feudalism, Guilds, Machinery, Aristocracy, Nationalism,
    [TAB][TAB]Civil Service, Gunpowder, Professional Army, Economics)

    [BOLD]Swing[\BOLD]
    (these values are high, but their effect gets halved every turn)
    [TAB]Being in anarchy: -8 (0 for Prussia)
    [TAB]Entering a war: -3
    [TAB]Own improvement got destroyed: -2
    [TAB]Moving the palace: -5
    [TAB]Conquering a city in a core or historic province: +3
    [TAB]Losing a city in a core or historic province: -4 (-2 for Scotland)
    [TAB]Losing a city in a border of foreign province: -2 (-1 for Scotland)
    [TAB]Losing the capitol city: -10 (-20 for Byzantium, -5 for Scotland)



    List of state based modifiers / Base stability[\H1]

    [BOLD]Cities[\BOLD]
    [TAB]For an average city happiness of at least 2k+1: +k
    [TAB]For each city with prosecution countdown of at least 10k+1: -2(k+1)
    [TAB]For each city that
    [TAB][TAB]is healthy: +1
    [TAB][TAB]is unhappy (has at least one angry population): -2
    [TAB][TAB]has at least one foreign religion: -2 (-1 with Paganism, 0 for Poland)
    [TAB][TAB]has unhappy population because of hurrying: -1
    [TAB][TAB]has unhappy population because of no military: -1
    [TAB][TAB]has unhappy population because of war weariness: -1
    [TAB][TAB]has unhappy population because of religion: -1
    [TAB][TAB]has less than 40% own culture: -1 (0 for Hungary)
    [TAB]Stability bonus for Orthodox faith points: +1 for 10 faith
    [TAB]While in a golden age: +8

    [BOLD]Civics[\BOLD]
    [TAB]Feudal Monarchy with
    [TAB][TAB]the Stephansdom wonder: +2
    [TAB][TAB]Feudal Law: +1
    [TAB]Divine Monarchy with
    [TAB][TAB]Paganism: -4
    [TAB][TAB]State Religion: +2
    [TAB][TAB]Theocracy: +3
    [TAB][TAB]Organized Religion: +2
    [TAB][TAB]Free Religion: -5
    [TAB][TAB]Religious Law: +2
    [TAB][TAB]the Stephansdom wonder: +2
    [TAB]Limited Monarchy with
    [TAB][TAB]the Stephansdom wonder: +2
    [TAB][TAB]Common Law: +3
    [TAB][TAB]Free Peasantry: +2
    [TAB][TAB]Free Labor: +2
    [TAB]Merchant Republic with
    [TAB][TAB]Feudal Law: -4
    [TAB][TAB]Trade Economy: +3
    [TAB][TAB]Common Law: +3
    [TAB][TAB]Free Peasantry: +2
    [TAB][TAB]Free Labor: +2
    [TAB]Merchant Republic with k cities: 5-k (0 with 5 cities)
    [TAB]Feudal Law with
    [TAB][TAB]Serfdom: +1
    [TAB][TAB]Manorialism: +1
    [TAB][TAB]Free Peasantry: -4
    [TAB]Bureaucracy with k cities: 6-k (0 with 6 cities)
    [TAB]Religious Law with
    [TAB][TAB]Paganism: -5
    [TAB][TAB]Theocracy: +3
    [TAB][TAB]Free Religion: -5
    [TAB]Common Law with
    [TAB][TAB]Free Labor: +3
    [TAB][TAB]Theocracy: -4
    [TAB]Serfdom with Manorialism: +2
    [TAB]Apprenticeship with Guilds: +3

    [BOLD]Expansion[\BOLD]
    [TAB]For each own city
    [TAB][TAB]in a foreign province: -5 (-4 with Imperialism)
    [TAB][TAB]in a border province: -2 (-1 with Imperialism)
    [TAB][TAB]French UP: additional +1 for each city in a border or foreign province
    [TAB]For each foreign city
    [TAB][TAB]in a core province: -3 (0 with Militarism)
    [TAB][TAB]in a normal province: -1 (0 with Militarism)
    [TAB]For each vassal: +1 (+3 with Vassalage)
    [TAB]For being a vassal of someone else: +8
    [TAB]Stability penalty for number of cities (with k cities): -(k*k)/40
    [TAB][TAB]So 0 for less than 7 cities, -1 with 7 and 8 cities, -2 with 9 and 10 cities
    [TAB][TAB]-3 with 11 and 12 cities, -4 with 13 and 14 cities, -5 with 15 city
    [TAB][TAB]-1 for each city after the 15th, -2 for each city after the 31th
    [TAB][TAB]The Ottomans and Muscovy get five cities for free

    [BOLD]Economy[\BOLD]
    [TAB]Industrial Stability in your empire: between -3 and +3
    [TAB][TAB]Based on agriculture, production and industrial development
    [TAB]Financial Stability in your empire: between -4 and +4
    [TAB][TAB]Based on finances, inflation, trade and economic development

     

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