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Stability

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall: Europe' started by Veshta, May 1, 2011.

  1. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    Woaah! nice thread!

    I was waiting for that long ago. Its popped a lot of problem and question.
    For me "raze" is important, there is so many reason to do so. In general i think in big from the beginning and always looking for the best spots. so i raze a lot small and big, i cannot get better gift then make raze a temporary penality, just look at RL Masskilling hurts for 20 years max, and people know about less then 100 years, its noting in a life of a country with 1000+ years of history... :D
     
  2. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Actually an outdated version was already avaiable in the civilopedia
    Civilopedia/Concepts/Stability Guide (and IIRC I already said it to you twice, when you were asking about stability values :mischief:)
    But yeah, now everything is up to date, and the guide itself is better formatted than before.

    Some of the negative modifiers are permanent (like razing cities, or declaring war) to balance out the permanent positive modifiers.
    While it's not terribly realistic that things like that from hundreds of years ago still hurt your stability, it also works the same way for all the positive modifiers
    It's needed for balance.
    Actually lategame stability was (is?) still a little too easy in late game for most civs, that's why I increased stability penalty (dynamic) for having cities in worse than historic provinces
    Should work really very well with the increased chance for city revolt in foreign and border/contested provinces.
     
  3. ales_

    ales_ Heir

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    Actually, the formatting is completely broken.
     
  4. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Khmm..
    It was made for the civilopedia, not for the forum
     
  5. citis

    citis Chieftain

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    I see that losing a city through "indepedence" is very easy even if you are solid. In a couple of turns you become unstable lose the city and become solid again. And this happens while playing historically (conquer Marseilles as Aragonese or Athens as Venetians).

    While I can understand this harse stability in DoC, where a city some 4 tiles away is a completely different country in terms of culture. It doesn't make a lot of sence here. Historically speaking European powers controlled many exclaves. Seeing the army that conquered a city near core province joining the indepedence is extreme and unrealistic.

    Some rioting or revolts, defence mallus, AI trying to liberate the city is more realistic.
     
  6. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Found and fixed some serious issues connected to stability
    Will be up in a couple days, should result in a less random feel in some previously strange situations
     
  7. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    I'm toying around with the idea of adding some small stability boost on successful UHV completion.
    Just some minor boost, +2 or +3, mainly for increasing the positive feedback for players going for a Historical Victory.
    Would something like this be welcomed? What's the opinion on the numbers?
     
  8. PinkPallin

    PinkPallin Chieftain Supporter

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    Any stability boost will be welcome!
    By the way, I like the way stability stats are shown in Dawn of Civilization. They let you understand what's going wrong.
     
  9. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

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    You mean the colored texts? I'm working on that now.
     
  10. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    I'm not familiar with it, will check it out
    But sounds like a good initiative, surely we can adjust it to RFCE in some form or another :)

    PS: pls wait for my update before commiting anything to the SVN connected to this
     
  11. Baron03

    Baron03 Baron

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    Stability is a big problem in current games, so I'm all for this. However, I played a game as Cordoba and fell into civil war in 972 so your proposed bonus wouldn't have saved my game. My stability never went higher than +4. I razed soria and went to -10, then -7 the next turn before falling into civil war.

    Also noted: Arabia descended into civil war in 828 despite having all cities in core territories. Are there any big overhauls for stability?
     
  12. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Stability is hard in the early-mid game, but for many civs it's way too easy in the lategame.
    Surely it's supposed to be balanced around UHVs, but I still think it's an issue.

    Cordoba and Arabia should have less issues after I commit my changes.
     
  13. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    As i see, the big minus stability penalities could work well, with a delay. Currently if you go to -10 its a good chance to loose a city. but usually its only a temporary state. so if u are in 0 - +2 and do something u gonna loose a city as AI too. If you add a 3 turn delay it would be fine. I.e. you have +2, then do something and it go down to -8 if the stability event is triggered (independence) it get a mark, then check it 2-3 turns later, if stability still around -5-10 then it goes indy, if not it stay with the country. is it clear? :D

    ps: lately arabia used to collapse and reapear 1-2 times after crusaeds
    but AI cordoba got srtonger and survive till portual-aragon spawn, or later
     
  14. LAF1994

    LAF1994 Chieftain

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    Currently, the Stability system doesn't work very well; stability frequently drops for no reason in completely arbitrary circumstances. E.g. during a Cordoba game, I have successfully defeated the Spanish, Portuguese and Aragonese and have full control over most of Iberia, except for two Independent cities in the north. At this point I have Stable stability. When I then attack and conquer La Coruna, my stability inexplicably plummets to Collapsing. Realistically, conquering territory shouldn't cause this effect- IRL, countries usually destabilized due to defeats.
     
  15. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Did you play that Cordoba game with the latest version?
    There were huge stability drops on war declaration (unintentional, caused by a Firaxis coding inconsistency), fixed in SVN 1146
     
  16. LAF1994

    LAF1994 Chieftain

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    It was with the latest SVN version.
    Also, the 'City declares independence' thing needs to be removed; it's extremely unrealistic.
    I tried a game as the Arabs, but my stab never seemed to go above Shaky, even though I was successfully expanding.
    Finally (on a different note) can you please stop the barb spam? It's irritating and in a lot of cases doesn't make sense:
    -Bedouins and Berbers shouldn't be randomly attacking Arabs/Cordoba.
    -Historically, the 500s were a high point for the Byzantines; in game they are just buried under barbs for the first 150 years (which they historically weren't).
    -Random nomad tribes inexplicably pop up in the middle of Hungary, even if said tribes (e.g. Cumans, Pechenegs) never made it that far west.
     
  17. Baron03

    Baron03 Baron

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    Spain could use an adjustment on the placement of barbarian spawns. They attack Cordoba at the south, but should be spread out more. Move some more to invade from the north near Toledo without placing them too close to independent cities.

    I'd also prefer the placement of an independent Lisbon (Ulixbona/Ulishbona) at the game's start with Catholicism, but only if Portugal's southern spawn zone of 2 or 3 rows is removed and they start at Portucale in 1139. So they move to conquer it. Their capital can move like when the ottomans take Constantinople. Then again that creates a finicky situation where the Cordobans won't take it because of stability issues. It's just capturing an important independent city then. That's entirely up to Absinthe :)
     
  18. LAF1994

    LAF1994 Chieftain

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    The Lusitania province could be split into Portugal (Portucale and Coimbra i.e. the County of Portugal) and Algarve. Algarve would be a Natural area for Cordoba.
     
  19. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Cities declaring independence is an important aspect of the mod. Needed for the current stability balance.
    Would you prefer having only full collapses? I find representing instability much better with the possibility for both low scale independence declarations, and total collapses.

    Barb spam is not that important from my perspective, also one could argue that it's fake difficulty in the mod.
    I hope most players don't mind it though, it's an easy way to balance various UHVs, and personally I like to see some other civs represented, even if only as barbs.

    Also, barbs can have 2 type of spawns, the more dangerous one enables them to spawn inside borders too (it's not that common though)
    About Pecheneg raids in Hungary, here is one example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kerlés
    Warring with them on the eastern borders of Hungary was pretty common though, especially in the 11th century.

    I agree with your Byzantine and Arab/Cordoban points, not yet sure how will I improve those situations.
     
  20. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Portugal's starting situation could also be improved, agreed
     

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