stack size

[bkrice]

In general, how many units can you get away with having in a stack before warring. I think I may be building too many and by the time I feel safe my units are ready to upgrade. Another reason I am asking is because suleiman attacked me with a stack of 4 or 5. Is this normal?

 

[Stewie0416]

First off, i must ask, what level are you playing on? Second, my stacks usually consist of 10-15 units in the early game, 20-25 units in the medieval period, and end game i usually have a stack of 30 to sometimes 60 in the end game. You have to break a bad habit ( that i still have trouble with). When you seem worried, do what i do. Save right be4 a DOW and just think "Screw it" and click! Works like a charm

But that also means having enough "kinds" of troops. A massive stack of 30 axes dont go well against a stack 1/3 its size in a city with 100% defense. Siege is king. i have 1/2 of my stack as siege and i can cut my stack size by quite alot of units by using massive amounts of siege, its quite overpowered really.

 

[Neal]

It totally depends upon the era of the war, your opponent, and your wartime objectives.

An early rush can be done with as few as 4 or 5 units, but for a late game modern war you should have quite a bit more.

Wiping Gandhi off the map will require significantly less units than, say, Monty.

And if you're only gunning to take a single city, you can get away with a much smaller force than you'd want to exterminate a sprawling civ.

 

[Charonicus]

Drop to epic speed if you're currently playing normal. Your units won't become obsolete quite so quickly.
As people have mentioned, difficulty setting plays a factor. Also send a scout or spy into your enemy's territory and see what you're up against defensively.
Personally I like to have ten siege in an attacking stack, fifteen when cannons come along. Two defenders for each city I plan to conquer. And around ten axemen for my early stack, or twenty axe/sword/mace combos for later stacks. I usually bring along a combat promoted spearman to protect against mounted units and a chariot or horse archer promoted to medic.
Various things alter this though. If my opponent is weak and only has a couple of archers per city then I don't need so many units. Likewise, as siege is gonna die it makes sense to make the most of them and attack the most heavily defended city where possible.
An early rush target can be taken without siege at the cost of axemen and a stack of 6-9 can take a city, sometimes two.
I also tend to take out the last defender with one of my own intended city defenders, such as a longbowman, or if the odds are bad, with a mounted unit. That way my offensive stack can march on without a lone axeman trying to catch them up.

Additional: These numbers take into account playing at Noble or Prince difficulty.
Additional 2: Even while attacking I keep building another stack of siege and defenders. Any remaining attackers return to join this secondary stack when peace is made at which point it is re-enforced with anything it needs and sent out again.

 

[Cashew]

In a team game I assume anything less than a 20 unit stack around turn 65 means I'm going to die (or have a very difficult time winning). After you get to longbows, I'd say that number increases to about 40 units.

It's the same thing for non team games except the increase when you get to 20 is slower. I might not have a 40 unit stack until knights.

 

[Skallagrimson]

A math rule of thumb.

CR = CG*3
S = CR
SD = CR/2
M=1

CR= City Raiders you bring in your stack
CG= City Garrison the AI has stationed in a typical/average frontier city of "good size"
S= Siege
SD= Stack Defenders (mix of anti-horse, anti-melee, terrain defenders, etc.)
M= Medic (preferably GG-led supermedic)

 

[slobberinbear]

Sisiutil's Rush Guide is useful for this issue. Assuming you have no siege, you can probably get away with 9-12 units against most oppponents early in the game.

Once the AI has metal hooked up, walls, and/or high cultural defenses, adding catapults brings greater success at the cost of more time in unit construction and longer sieges. Against most foes, 4-8 catapults, 4-8 city attackers, and 2 support units are more than enough. Just keep making replacements until you are sure the war will end soon.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

A math rule of thumb.

CR = CG*3
S = CR
SD = CR/2
M=1

CR= City Raiders you bring in your stack
CG= City Garrison the AI has stationed in a typical/average frontier city of "good size"
S= Siege
SD= Stack Defenders (mix of anti-horse, anti-melee, terrain defenders, etc.)
M= Medic (preferably GG-led supermedic)

There's something not quite consistent here, maybe. If the siege are expected to live, we don't need so many. If they are expected to die, then I think the function is wrong (we don't need 3 siege per defender - there's not that much collateral damage to go around). I would expect siege to be a function of cities/units (if using disposapults), or fairly constant (if raiding cities with Trebuchets).



A question that is interesting to me is if using CR for the attacking core is really the right answer. What would happen if we took roughly that number of troops, in that role, but promoted them along a different line?

Clearly for attacking a single city, CR > everything else. But if we change the problem from capturing a city to annexing an enemy, I start to wonder if the extra velocity of March would trump the marginal improvement in combat.

 

[Skallagrimson]

There's something not quite consistent here, maybe. If the siege are expected to live, we don't need so many. If they are expected to die, then I think the function is wrong (we don't need 3 siege per defender - there's not that much collateral damage to go around). I would expect siege to be a function of cities/units (if using disposapults), or fairly constant (if raiding cities with Trebuchets).

It's true that for combat siege isn't needed in such high numbers, but if they're 1:1 with CR, which is 3:1 with CG, that generally allows a one-shot demolition of city defenses AND a siege volley to weaken defenders, in the same turn. This isn't always needed at first when a spy can do the job, or if there are only 2 LBs defending the target city, but I'd rather have them and not need them, than need them and not have them.

A question that is interesting to me is if using CR for the attacking core is really the right answer. What would happen if we took roughly that number of troops, in that role, but promoted them along a different line?

Clearly for attacking a single city, CR > everything else. But if we change the problem from capturing a city to annexing an enemy, I start to wonder if the extra velocity of March would trump the marginal improvement in combat.

In one school of thought, the CR duties could be done by CG-promoted and C-promoted muskets, who are able to succeed because the siege did all of the heavy lifting in wearing the defenders down. C-line muskets can do reasonably well in CG situations if they don't get overrun by kngihts+, and the simplicity of build queues can make for more efficient use of military hammers. With each city you leave behind one full-up CG plus any of the wounded, and the rest keep trucking. (In a more specialized approach there can be times when you're waiting for a backfill of the specialty units.)

If there's a pretty decent tech lead the case can also be made for a cavs-only stack (for mobility).

 

[Xellos-_^]

First off, i must ask, what level are you playing on? Second, my stacks usually consist of 10-15 units in the early game, 20-25 units in the medieval period, and end game i usually have a stack of 30 to sometimes 60 in the end game. You have to break a bad habit ( that i still have trouble with). When you seem worried, do what i do. Save right be4 a DOW and just think "Screw it" and click! Works like a charm

But that also means having enough "kinds" of troops. A massive stack of 30 axes dont go well against a stack 1/3 its size in a city with 100% defense. Siege is king. i have 1/2 of my stack as siege and i can cut my stack size by quite alot of units by using massive amounts of siege, its quite overpowered really.

i don;t rus early games, just defend

buy the time i get calvary i throw a stack of 40 calvary

by late game, once i throw 3 stacks 100unit stack of modern armor, mech inf and gunboat units.

i love coordinated attacks.

the largest i ever threw at a AI had 200units in it.

 

[lightsedge]

For an offensive war, optimally I want to have a stack that can move 1 square every turn, except for possibly an extra turn before taking a city for bombardment, if I don't have enough sacrificial siege left over. I leave the wounded behind to heal and catch up later, which means my stack will probably be about 2x what I need to capture a normal city.

During the war, I'll build mostly siege and garrison troops. Attackers and stack defenders usually don't need to be replaced, if using a lot of siege against the AI, which tends to concentrate everything in cities.

 

[kingnorxis]

I don't think anyone can accurately tell you what size your stacks need to be, as it varies from game to game and who you are attacking. But, this is why espionage comes in handy - if you know exactly how many troops your enemy has and where they are, planning stack sizes are easy and you will always win. Espionage ain't helpful in early game, but is in late game with investment.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

A math rule of thumb.

CR = CG*3
S = CR
SD = CR/2
M=1

CR= City Raiders you bring in your stack
CG= City Garrison the AI has stationed in a typical/average frontier city of "good size"
S= Siege
SD= Stack Defenders (mix of anti-horse, anti-melee, terrain defenders, etc.)
M= Medic (preferably GG-led supermedic)

Horse Archer = 2.5 CG.

 

[KaytieKat]

Hi

I try to never go to war unless I am sure my stack is beig enuff to handle whatever the enemy can send at me:



Sometimes I go overboard a teensy bit hehe

Kaytie

 

[TwoShedsJackson]

wow someone actually built Guided Missiles

 

[Skallagrimson]

Now I don't feel so bad with the size of my stacks.

 

[lightsedge]

Makes me wish there was an automate function for military units. Build lots of units and loose them upon the enemy!

 

[Woodreaux]

My pre-gunpowder SoD's order of battle follows this template:

let n := where 'n' is the number of cities I plan on assaulting

TF Siege: 4 or 5 Treb's with CRdr I + Accuracy. The Accuracy means you can drop a city's defense from 60 to 0% with only 4 or 5 bombardments instead 7 or 8. These are the first units to act. They should bombard, that's they're only job.
TF Arty: n*a Trebs (a is the number of CGar arch/longbows I expect to find. If the target is a Protective leader, double this number).These units should go for City Raider line first. Some are for suicide, the heavily promoted ones used when they are likely to survive. They soften the defenders to make the assault units jobs easier.
TF Assault: These are your swords, axes, maces and mounted units. I try to bring about 2-4 swords w/CRdr promos, 2-3 axe/mace, 2-4 mounted units with flanking I & II. Guerrilla III crossbows are fantastic against hills and the 50% retreat makes them like Flank II Horse Archers. These dudes actually kill the defenders. TF Assault should weakened the strongest defenders, so these units should stay healthy and earn lots of promotions.
TF Security: They protect the SoD enroute to the target. 2-4 spear/pikes, 2-4 axe/mace. Try to anticipate the terrain. If enemy's terrain is hilly, substitute some of the axe/mace for archer/longbows with guerrilla. But if it's forested give the melee's woody promo's. Woody III is great because a unit with woody III can double a super medic.
TF Occupation: 2*n archer/longbow, to drop them off at the cities you conquer.

TF Arty & Occupation are most likely to need replacement, if you didn't bring enough or if you decide to take over more cities. The rest of the units should survive, unless the enemy has a military advantage. Then a fudge factor is advisable.

 

[bestbrian]

I don't do the one massive stack; I build balanced Army Groups and then attack at multiple points while providing mutual support. Compostition generally consists of 9 Siege, 9 CR, 4 Stack Defeners, 4 Mobile Units, and a Medic. As soon as one is built, I start work on another, and so on. Different eras and specialized units change things a bit.

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

wow someone actually built Guided Missiles

Guided Missiles can't be shot down by Sams or fighters...

Oh and Kaytie-Holy @&%$ what a stack!