Stairway to Heaven: my first Deity game

[georgjorge]

@SunTzuWu: That's interesting...I usually do try to go for Horseback Riding first because Mathematics often has little trade value as everyone self-researches it (as seen by the Hanging Gardens being built before he could get Alphabet), whereas HBR is rarely selfresearched. I guess its a trade-off between teching and unit production.

Good play so far! Though I don't get begging Archery - you won't need any Horse Archers in the near future and you could trade for more techs without that. Not a biggie though. And you shouldn't have opened borders with the Americans if you could see them being Tokus worst enemy as they won't give you any additional trade routes and won't attack you anyway - little things like this can add up. At least you'll get your trade routes from him if you attack Kublai...oh, and you should have a unit in Kublai's territory looking for his stack so you know what to expect.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Hi Pomthom,

I've got no time at the moment (so no update/progress in Runaway Bride), however, I could read this thread.

I think you missed a 2 or 3 important stopping points in your last turnset.
- You lost the focus on expansion, somewhat. I think you should have settled your 4th way earlier. Even for a rush, you want the city to get Granary, Barracks, some population, and maybe culture/research. So it is important it is settled early. Also, the earlier it is settled, the earlier it pays back.

- War against Julius... you should have joined once he had 2 opponents. Diplo points with Tokugawa are welcome, especially if they allow you to open border + declare war against Kublai safely (it is still time to DoW Julius but maybe it is now safer to wait until you have an army, dunno). Depending on how the situation evolves, backstabbing Tokugawa is also an option. Keeping options open = good.


I can't remember much else, now. I did shadow the game to 2000 BC and my save is attached.
I think the conclusion that had to be drawn from the discussion 17th of July was: settle 2nd city 2W1N of copper, research Fishing, Pottery (no Agriculture, no!). So that's what I've done (Pottery done by 2320 BC).
Notable difference with your play is that I didn't complete the ivory camp but stopped the worker to improve the pigs asap once AH was researched. So I didn't stagnate for 2 turns at size 1, building worker. I could then go settler, settler, worker (, setller) in the capital.
3rd city (my shadow) is blocking Toku who's been trying to surround us. 4th and 5th should be settled asap towards Kublai.
Masonry is the tech in progress and that may be a mistake (Sailing/Writing may be better). Julius has built the Pyramids already.

Don't underestimate offshore cities: they're a great source of commerce if you wish to tech up. It's hard to have them contribute to military production, however.
Wish you luck and strength, this is a tough opening for sure.

You should scout asap. Razing the barb city was a mistake, or so I think. Settler is 100 hammers and you could use another city. If culture pressure is an issue, then you can settle another, close by city. Invading the troublesome neighbour is a definitive solution.

@Granary whip:
Granary stores food from the turn it is complete. i.e. from the turn you start another build. Optimal granary build has X/2X food after it is complete. Optimal whip also maximizes production overflow.
You had a good granary whip in Djenne but "optimal" would be stretching things

@Delaying Writing because no slots for specialists:
But Writing also enables Open Borders. AND it allows you to start banking gold at 100% slider earlier, so you can reach the classical era earlier.
I dislike the Pottery > Agriculture part of your play: Agriculture brings a discount to the research of Pottery. Researching Agri 2nd is a loss of beakers.

@What comes next:
I don't think you should stagnate any of your size 1 cities: they will grow faster than any other one. Capital is a better candidate for stagnation (and supplement it with chops, so you don't stagnate forever). Using your happy caps means growing where it is the easier. Assess the value of growth, too: growing Timbuktu to 4, to work a grassland forest had poor value. City could have stagnated at 3 a little longer.

I hope that helps a tad tid little bit.

 

[Doshin]

Vandal could also have been gifted, for the diplo points. But really it should have been kept. Settlers and Workers are more expensive than they appear, because they cause growth to stagnate.

I agree with STW and BIC's comments, although I also understand that HBR is a much more reliable trade chip than Mathematics. It's a fair decision.

All four cities should, however, have a Granary and Barracks by this stage. Other builds are superfluous. It is worth having a Stable in your best production city, but that is pretty much it. Have that city build nothing but Elephants. Remember that promotions help to heal units, so it's not the worst thing to have 3XP units to mop up against the weaker defenders.

Here is my game, at T95/500BC (the closest save I have). I had stolen a Worker from Tokugawa earlier, so I'd committed to him being my eventual Elepult target a long time ago:

Spoiler :

Notice that 6/7 cities are producing military units. These all have a Granary and a Barracks. I have only 3 Workers, but they are all on Forests and either chopping or preparing to chop. Niani was arguably settled too soon, but at least at size 2 it can whip a Monument in preparation for one day working the Crabs.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@Doshin:
Do you think that stealing a worker makes up for researching Archery?
Let's not consider the diplo hit: how do you weight the free hammers vs beaker cost?

It's a slight pity that your shadow started so differently than Pomthom's game. I think Hunting, AH, BW was a good start.
Agri, AH is certainly viable, too: slower food but faster Pottery.

I'm tempted to replay from 2320 BC (Pottery) to 2000 BC, switching Myst, Masonry to Sailing, Writing or the reverse, so that the overall techpath becomes:
Hunting, AH, BW, Fishing, Pottery, Sailing/Writing. Skipping Agriculture, Mysticism and Masonry altogether.

 

[Doshin]

@BIC

Yes and no. It was a slightly opportunistic steal—the Worker presented itself, and Toku had a Scout close to my capital. Skirmishers are also very good, and stealing a Worker could have evolved into a more sustained choke. That didn't actually happen... but still, even stealing one Worker so early on is a good way to hurt the AI, especially if you plan to Elepult them shortly after. You are up +1 Workers, they are down -1 Workers. It's a 2 Worker difference (kind of).

The investment and delayed access to Copper were big drawbacks, of course.

My game also differs in that I was able to build the Pyramids at a time when it was long gone in pomthom and ben-jammin's games. Sometimes the RNG makes comparing games tough, although here I was the beneficiary.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@Doshin: thanks for your answer. 2 workers differential is a big deal, agreed. But messed up tech path... I don't know...

I think you should have settled your 4th way earlier.

Typical REx opening settles the 3rd city by 2000 BC and a 6th by 1000 BC (normal speed).
Wonder gambits, military production, infrastructure, etc. all delay the settling.

Things that are important to realize:
- Additional cities cost maintenance and, thus, slow down the tech pace. This is the obvious point that everybody (rightfully) fears;
- Cities pay back for their cost. The earlier a city is settled, the better it can pay back. If one has the tech to make his cities productive, then slowing down the tech pace is of little importance! What is important is that the acceleration (cities paying back) will then come earlier!
- With control, no fear to have, only greed With Pottery + Writing, commerce is useful to pay for maintenance and bank gold. Now I can see how streamlining the tech path (on one's way to Writing) is very useful.

RExor:

Spoiler :

Replayed from 2400 BC, following the directions in my above post. Built 3 settlers at size 3 City 2 starts on Axeman (growth on floodplains is ok) then switches to Granary. City 3 = no food, starts on worker (supplemented with a chop). City 4 starts on Library, to supplement with a chop(s).
Capital will 1pop whip the worker asap so we'll have 3 workers for 4 cities very soon.
5th city is also to be settled asap, on a hill, to protect from the Bhan.

ALL of those early cities are guaranteed to get excellent infrastructure. The very fact they were settled early, with tech knowledge, constitutes the guarantee.

 

[pomthom]

Hey guys, thanks again this is very good stuff!! Funny how your approaches are really different Makes it sometimes hard to take what can fit in my style of play but in the end very very instructive!

Won't have time to writeup today, but I've played quite a bit since my last update... and it didn't go so well

Long story short I ended up Elepulting Toku. I was being very careful about diplo bribing and the war was going well. He got Feud before I got to his cap so that slowed me down a bit but not too much. There was only 1 Japanese city left on the continent (+4/5 island cities) which I was about to take when.... Toku peace vassal'd to... Kublai

It ended badly

I'll post a writeup so you can tell me what you think!

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@Doshin's vs my shadow:
I think the main point to look at is the Japanese borders.
Doshin stealing a worker effectively stiffled Tokugawa's expansion: Washington could reach our border, Toku was blocked.
In my attempt, Toku is slipping settler after settler along the northern coast. Those are weak and vulnerable (junk) cities. In order to prevent him from claiming too much land, this forced me to settle my 3rd to the north. It is a junk city that can, mid-term, claim interesting resources (gems, dyes). In comparison, Doshin had a stronger third.

I love culture wars on shared borders, so I don't have any problem with my setup. Especially so since Tokugawa is a culture weakling and I can envision to culture press him. However, most players would avoid that kind of play because the short-term returns are so poor.

Maybe the key point, here, is that we formed a plan but then adapted to the game's situation. Doshin researched Archery but didn't train early Skirmishers. I sacrificed a strong 3rd. Reaction is the word.


@Peace vassal, losing the war against Kublai and, thus, the game...
Well, that happens! You'll have tried!
Coming up with the necessary production to resist an unexpected DoW is always challenging on Deity and... cannot always be done. Maybe next time, or the one after, or... Deity ain't as easy as some would like to think. Losing is very easy, even from an advantageous position. Continuous attention is required. Later eras can be especially scary (tremendous bonuses to the AIs).

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Couldn't resist trying to play to 500 BC... Well, I've reached 600 BC and want to show an interesting screenshot. Promise I'll upload a save for 500 BC (4 more turns, courage!).

Tech trading, the deals:

Spoiler :

Roosevelt got Alphabet first. At that point, I focused my espionage points on him.
I had been banking gold from 2000 BC, backfilled Sailing, researched Maths, put 2 turns into Alpha and traded Maths for Alpha with Roosie.
Well, now. Hammurabi and Caesar trade with each other but do not trade with Hannibal, Kublai and Toku... who do trade with each other. Trading with a diplo block guarantees the rival block will not access the techs one is trading.

Like this:


I did trade Maths to Roosie (900 BC).
Then Alpha/Maths to Hammurabi, maybe Construction as well, can't remember, and Alpha to Caesar (Toku and Caesar had researched Maths by 900 BC, then Caesar had Construction before I did) . Now, we're left with good deals with the baddies. Cool, eh? Meawhile, everybody is comparatively more backwards than they would be otherwise. Cool as well.

The date is 600 BC (t90) and the lay of the land:

Spoiler :

5 workers.
1 settler active, 1 galley active (go, go islands). No scout active (bad).
5 granaries. 5 Libraries. 2 barracks. 1 lighthouse.
1st GP incoming in Timbuktu.
Several tiles are contested: exciting! I had to trade for Mysticism just to protect the gems tiles. Myst, Agri, Archery were delayed until very recently (still 0 farms/monuments ... except for the rice farm (1st ring!) that was improved... by Hammurabi).

Building settlers at low size delayed growth. No city had population above 3 at 1500 BC. Cottaging started shortly before 1000 BC. 5th city was settled on 1560 BC.

Kublai DoWed Hammurabi, which is a lucky roll of dice. We'd be dead had he DoWed us.
-2 border tensions with Toku forces us on the war path.

 

[Doshin]

@pomthom

Unlucky. It happens. Were you able to beg something from Kublai before Toku peace vassaled?

Willem might be a good leader to play for the next attempt, if you're taking suggestions.

@BIC

The runaway bride has made a detour to the skies.

Looks good, anyway. One nice thing about those Toku northern cities is that they will be very easy to pick off.

I never got around to settling the islands...

 

[BornInCantaloup]

The runaway bride has made a detour to the skies.

Yeah... 1370 AD is more demanding than 4000 BC, especially that situation (drafting with Biology farms, growing 1 pop/turn ideally). I'm almost back to it, though. Just need to write some preparatory posts before playing on (1400 AD, really, ready to DoW but Incan destroyers rule the seas).
Also I had a hectic week but... that is only for me to know

[...]

Did play to 500 BC, build up in progress (2 units out). Save is attached. I won't play the war for this map.
I lost a little growth on several whips, whipping too soon and delaying +1 pop by 1 turn... several times. Kind of thing that distinguishes a really good whip from another one.

Item earlier = better
Max overflow = better
Regrowth earlier = better
Sometimes one can't have it all.

 

[shakabrade]

Max overflow = better

Only when OFing into wonders and things requiring 4-5 pop whips like universities which can take a while in slower cities.

Started playing this map and

Spoiler :

have settled differently (1NW) because 2 FPs in the West can be seen and to get river grassland forests in the North into BFC.

 

[pomthom]

@pomthom

Unlucky. It happens. Were you able to beg something from Kublai before Toku peace vassaled?

Willem might be a good leader to play for the next attempt, if you're taking suggestions.

Nope he was Cautious. Plus I don't think I would have thought of doing it because when I DoW'd Toku, Kublai was at war with Roosy (and I think that when an AI is WHEOOHRN he can't accept a peace vassal?). So I didn't see him as a potential bribe target or PV (oops ). It was bad luck but if my timing had been better I would have gotten him before Feud and probably would have capped him before he PV'd.

Actually I was thinking Pacal for the next attempt but Willem I also like a lot. No Lizzy though (she's a very good leader but I just don't like having to leverage the Philo trait).

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@shakabrade:

Your capital will get more food and a much better use for an Academy but the loss from 2H3C city tile is an immense handicap to start with.
Plus side: you can have a more natural tech path in Agri, AH.


Max overflow is also good when building workers/settlers.
Overflow hammers also matter if they reduce the next whip by 1 pop (Universities, sure, but... really, any build: Library/Granary/whatever). You're right that overflowing into a meaningful build is different from gaining hammers, however! That is neutral. What counts is that hammers are invested into a meaningful build (for lack of a better word).


@PomPom:
Pacal is a great leader. Plenty of them. Feel free to choose whoever you wish.
Elizabeth is... hmmm... harder to play than she seems "on paper": the lack of early production bonuses is a large drawback to her early game. Everything is very costly to Elizabeth.

 

[pomthom]

@PomPom:
Pacal is a great leader. Plenty of them. Feel free to choose whoever you wish.

Yeah it's just I'd like to stick with the FIN trait for now. Not that it's always the best but it's just so easy to leverage! Compared to other economic traits (such as PHI or IND) the only real micro it involves is tile sharing and I kinda like that so FIN is a very comfortable choice for me

 

[Doshin]

Pacal is a great leader.

Ragnar is fun too. Definitely one of the weaker Financial leaders, especially on land maps... but still.

 

[sampsa]

@shakabrade

Spoiler :

I am also very curious about your decision to not settle the capital on the wine plain hill and hope you can elaborate your thoughts on it a bit more. I'd strongly consider settling there even without the wine, but the +2 commerce would be too hard to resist. BIC makes a good point though, your choice makes the tech path less awkward.

on overflow

Spoiler :

If I've understood correctly, overflow hammers get the forge bonus again (but not org.rel. bonus!), which is one reason to try to max overflow. Correct me if this is wrong or has been patched years ago.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@sampsa:
On overflow, forge and hammers:
one should distinguish between base hammers (pre multipliers) and actual hammers (post).

A forge says: actual hammers = 1,25 base hammers.
So if one whips, 1 population is 37.5 hammers.

Once the build is complete, there is overflow.
We had 10/40H invested, whipped, reached 47/40H. The 7H of overflow are converted back into base hammers: 5.

Then there is the next build, and production bonuses are applied.
5 base hammers of overflow become 7 hammers + the city's natural production.

In this case, the conversion to base hammers is useless because we're going from forge bonus to forge bonus.
However, if one's building an item with a production bonus that is lost on the next item, then it matters.
e.g.: One is Expansive and has +25% production towards Workers. Whipping a worker will yield 37.5 hammers / pop. If one reaches 67/60 after the whip, then the 7 overflow hammers will be converted back to 5 base hammers. And, on the next build, those 5 base hammers will remain 5 base hammers.

Stone, marble, Org Rel or Police State, IMP trait, Creative Libraries all follow the same logic:
when you whip, you get the production bonus but it does not transfer to the next item. Hammers are converted back to base hammers (pre multipliers).

Note: I'm not sure 7 -25% makes 5



The reason overflow hammers are generally neutral is that:
A whip is 30H.
Whipping from 20/60 to 80/60 results in 20/X
Whipping from 10/60 to 70/60 results in 10/X
Therefore, in order to get a better overflow, you need to have invested more hammers before whipping.
If you do cycle items in your production queue, however, you can get your hammers where they need to be.
In that regard, it helps to determine a minimum size at which a city should be whipped (tiles X, Y, Z should always be worked, therefore the city should be whipped at size more than 3).
It also helps to consider population as stored production.If you're growing to size 5 and know you can whip 2 pop, then you might set up for such a whip...

I hope that shines some light. Implications are endless and I wouldn't claim to master them all.

 

[shakabrade]

I am also very curious about your decision to not settle the capital on the wine plain hill and hope you can elaborate your thoughts on it a bit more. I'd strongly consider settling there even without the wine, but the +2 commerce would be too hard to resist. BIC makes a good point though, your choice makes the tech path less awkward.

Food! Only one hill piggie for all those brown tiles means that piggie can't be shared. Ever. By getting more food into BFC while also reducing the need for food because of far more food neutral or food positive tiles. My capital will be a monster bureau capital which will even be able to share pigs for the second or third city and that will mittigate the effects of lost initial production +1 very soon cause that city can whip staff (settlers, workers) + capital 1NW has 2 more forests. Now, we still have +2 lost but if you settle 1NW, you get so lucky that you get third flood plain in your BFC. Therefore, my initial build is not a worker while teching Agri but it is a warrior while teching BW. Worker will be whipped at size 4 and FPs will contribute with +2 and that solves that issue. Warrior is built sooner and barbs are much less of a problem because you can fogbust with 2 warriors while lions are still around. Tech path: BW, Hunting, AH, Fishing, Pottery. When worker is out, he knows nothing but chops and therefore he can chop another worker or settler until hunting and AH are in. Better than improving mines since mines will be worked only when city is grown to happy cap.

Wine hill as a capital can't whip well nor is a good production site until grown (Slow with only one food resource, and Flood plains must be settled next and Farmed so you could do a bit of whipping. Waste of FIN trait or waste of early whips.

It wasn't so elaborated in my head, it just seemed much better at first glance.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Worker will be whipped at size 4

No kidding?!
I'll have to try that.

BW first, growing on floodplains... I can't say it seems unreasonable but that's really an odd opening.
Reminds me of Rusten's recommendation to go worker x2 on a heavily forested start, with Elizabeth (BW first). Resulting in forever size 1 capital but also a commerce overload (super early Oracle?). No one took him up on the suggestion (nor did he, himself, for that matter).