Stalin: Third Greatest Russian

[Gelion]

Yeah, he did accomplish a lot by leading his people to victory. He did what had be done and he did so under a lot of pressure.. That was an impressive feat in its own way and I might even myself call it great.

That would be my opinion too. But I have to argue with the rest of your points:

- for some people the result was an exchange of one oppresive regime for another

True, however under those regimes and in the long run the people:
1) survived as a nation (yes, including Poland) and survived as a people
2) got systems of free healtcare, education, transport that were quite on a world level prior to end of 1980's. Population in those years advanced. All (most) or population, not the select few.
3) had an ideological goal/vector not based on sex and greed or violence nor on stamping on another person. Yes I am comparing to Nazi Germany and today's world. This ideology produced better people at least among the common folk.

- for a larger group of people it was the removal of freedoms of expression, religion, movement, and even language

All but language is true. Whether is a good or a bad influence on the society could be argued. Moderation is the key as it was said by some great Greeks. As for suppresion of the language it would be cool if you'd say what you were referring to. USSR and the block had quite an open language policy.

- for most people the result was the removal of national sovereignty

The states were there and while from a modern point of view there was a loss of sovereignity it is no different than what was/is happenning prior to 1914 and post 1991.

- for tens of millions of Soviets, the result was death

This happens in a war, but, yes, a lot of operations were poorly managed.

- for most the result was the imposition of an inefficient economic system that eventually collapsed

Which was a direct result of a non-military confrontation with the west. It was a war. Communism lost it.

No set of positive outcomes for the Soviet Union that resulted from all of this can possibly outshine the negatives in a way that might lead anybody sane to call Stalin great.

There was a very real danger of occupation and destruction of Russian and other peoples of USSR by Nazi Germany. That alone justifies it.

Take a month to visit Germany. Then take one to visit Japan. And finally take the third to visit Russia. And believe me, you'll want to check your history books again, because by that time you'll actually be doubting whether you remember correctly about who won the war.

After that think about who would survive another famine, war or an attack by USA. Think again who won the war and can still win themselves.

Come on, I don't buy for a moment you really think he believed in. or worked for, the first two. As for saving Russian nation/culture... well, my humble opinion is that Bolsheviks have damaged Russian nation and culture more than anybody else... though indeed Hitler might have, had he won the war. But secondly - were all Stalin's atrocities really necessary to ensure Russia's survival? Britain managed to survive too, without building Gulag. And I'm not even bringing Rezun's "Icebreaker" theories into this.

I have already explained what I meant above. As for Hitler.... by June 22 1941 it didn't matter what Bolsheviks have done. Stalin won Russian hearts the minute WW2 turned into a Great Patriotic War for Survival. Nazi's didn't have the plans to kill all Britons. For Russians and other Slavs they did.

No, they did not. I believe the Allies did everything in its power to keep Germany weak and disarmed.

Try USA and their military supplies when Germany quit LoN.

I do not think there was much military cooperation between UK and Germany in 1930-s. And they certainly did not divide Europe into zones of influence.

Not that we know of, right?

Can't really understand this poll - they have so many great writers and scientists/mathematicians, politics really isn't their strong suit...

Btw the articles speaks of 50million people polled, that seems quite extraordinary.

As I have explained earlier the website talks about just under 5 million people.

 

[Riffraff]

As I have explained earlier the website talks about just under 5 million people.

That seems a lot more realistic.

 

[TheLastOne36]

and I had family who died in the Civil War and Purges.... want to continue? who lots more?
Either way what are we talking about here now? which famine? There was no famine with great amount of deaths in 1980's. This is the situation that I thought we were discussing. If not please, explain.

Well it wasn't really a famine, people were just hungry, and had nothing really, because of the lack of food and everyone was really poor.

 

[red_elk]

No, they did not. I believe the Allies did everything in its power to keep Germany weak and disarmed. I do not think there was much military cooperation between UK and Germany in 1930-s. And they certainly did not divide Europe into zones of influence.

I asked, did Churchill and Roosevelt do everything in their power to have Hitler attack USSR? You answered to some other question.

 

[Gelion]

Well it wasn't really a famine, people were just hungry, and had nothing really, because of the lack of food and everyone was really poor.

Like everywhere else in the block.... I thought your point was about evil Soviets stealing food so that they can feed themselves? If not, I do not know what we are arguing about.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Like everywhere else in the block.... I thought your point was about evil Soviets stealing food so that they can feed themselves? If not, I do not know what we are arguing about.

I though that was the case till this thread.

 

[Yeekim]

I have already explained what I meant above. As for Hitler.... by June 22 1941 it didn't matter what Bolsheviks have done. Stalin won Russian hearts the minute WW2 turned into a Great Patriotic War for Survival.

Not all Russian hearts. Large number joined the Germans. Unprecedentedly large number, I might say. Maybe I just don't know about that, but i don't recall a historical analogue for HiWis or Vlassov Army from WW1. And even those who did not defect fought for their country, not for comrade Stalin, I believe.

Nazi's didn't have the plans to kill all Britons. For Russians and other Slavs they did.

Sorry, but I have to call BS on that. Unless of course you back this up with some substantial proof. There was a thread in history subforum about Nazi racial doctrine and Hitler's plans with "inferior races" like Slavs a while ago. You might want to look it up.

 

[Gelion]

Not all Russian hearts. Large number joined the Germans. Unprecedentedly large number, I might say. Maybe I just don't know about that, but i don't recall a historical analogue for HiWis or Vlassov Army from WW1. And even those who did not defect fought for their country, not for comrade Stalin, I believe.

Exactly, which is what I mean. Country became Stalin and Stalin became country. I am not sure what number of ethnic Russians fought with the Germans, I'd say between 200,000 and 1,000,000 men which is a tiny percentage of the total fighting force (5%?) that Russian people had (not the mention the rest of USSR).

Sorry, but I have to call BS on that. Unless of course you back this up with some substantial proof. There was a thread in history subforum about Nazi racial doctrine and Hitler's plans with "inferior races" like Slavs a while ago. You might want to look it up.

I must say my knowledge there is rather sketchy, but I am sure the ideology involved either direct extermination or reduction to a predefined number of forced labour settlements with no education or future. Thus it doesn't change my reasoning. But, yeah, I have to do some reading on this.

I though that was the case till this thread.

Yes, but as we have established there was no famine during "Soviet" times..... ?

 

[Luckymoose]

Imagine the international outrage if Germans had voted Hitler as the greatest ever German...

Unlike Russia, Germany has so many number ones they don't bother to hold polls anymore.

 

[warpus]

True, however under those regimes and in the long run the people:
1) survived as a nation (yes, including Poland) and survived as a people

Yeah, thanks for saving us from the Nazis and stuff. You guys are awesome.

Please take away all our freedoms and feel free to run our economy into the ground. It's the least we can do to pay you back for your glorious sacrifice.

 

[Verbose]

I must say my knowledge there is rather sketchy, but I am sure the ideology involved either direct extermination or reduction to a predefined number of forced labour settlements with no education or future. Thus it doesn't change my reasoning. But, yeah, I have to do some reading on this.

Something along the lines of:
"Reduce the Slavs to the east to the status of illiterate serfs. Let them smell our exhaust fumes as the Master Race rides through their communities perched on top of their tanks, like latterday manorial knights."

 

[Gelion]

Yeah, thanks for saving us from the Nazis and stuff. You guys are awesome.

Please take away all our freedoms and feel free to run our economy into the ground. It's the least we can do to pay you back for your glorious sacrifice.

Thanks, but the game isn’t worth the candle. See ya!

Something along the lines of:
"Reduce the Slavs to the east to the status of illiterate serfs. Let them smell out exhaust fumes as the Master Race rides through their communities perched on top of their tanks, like latterday manorial knights."

Bingo! Thanks
Where did you get that? If it is your own quote, then I applaude you.

 

[Verbose]

Bingo! Thanks
Where did you get that? If it is your own quote, then I applaude you.

It's me paraphrasing roughly what Hitler was saying in his dinner conversations in that bunker under Berlin. Which means the problem with it is that it's a bit of monstrous wish-fulfilment fantasy on his part, made as these purportedly sub-human Slavs were busy pounding his empire, armies and captial into dust.

The thing is, no one really knows for sure how a victorious Nazi Germany would have treated any conquered lands to the east. Hitler's fantasy is in character with the man and the movement though.

 

[plarq]

I guess he'll leave some client/puppet in the vast land of USSR if he won.

 

[Ayatollah So]

Stalin is making a popularity comeback. Just wait.

And no wonder (source):

A single death is a tragedy, are million deaths is a statistic.

Death solves all problems - no man, no problem.

Ideas are far more powerful than guns. We don't allow our enemies to have guns, why should we allow them to have ideas?

The Pope? How many divisions has he got?

In the Soviet army it takes more courage to retreat than advance.

It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything.
Joseph Stalin

Stalin - putting the "dic" in dictator

 

[Zsilot]

Stalin was not evil in the classical term the deaths under his rule we're more the result of his naiveness and paranoia. As I view him Stalin is one of the most indecisive rulers of all time.

 

[plarq]

Stalin was not evil in the classical term the deaths under his rule we're more the result of his naiveness and paranoia. As I view him Stalin is one of the most indecisive rulers of all time.

He is called iron fist. His paranoia might have some solid background, but the purge is for his own gain, not the country. No one is plotting to surrender to Germans. Otherwise Trotsky can roll in his grave blaming Stalin usurp the power and surrender to capitalism.

 

[Commy]

The polling is biased. Victims of Stalin aren't alive to vote him down.

I'm surprised by so much knowledge of Soviet history. I think you even know how many children were gobbled up personally by Stalin