Stalin

[futurehermit]

There doesn't seem to be much love for Stalin on these forums, so I wanted to start a thread to see what people think of his potential.

1) He's the only aggressive civ to start with mining...two techs (bw + wheel) from aggressive axes with half-priced barracks?

2) He's industrious. This does conflict slightly with axe-rushing, especially if you're thinking of Obsolete-style wonder-spamming. However, I like to think of industrious as a trait that helps you nab one or more timely economic wonders to help you get past the tough part of the game where expanding is hurting your economy. GLH, pyramids, oracle are all possibilities for him in this regard after he gets some axes out. GL in the enemy capital as a gpfarm. Also helps with national wonders like HE, NE, GT, IW, FP, Ox. After axe-rushing chances are stone and/or marble exist somewhere in the surrounding territory as well.

3) He starts with hunting. Combined with point #1 he's just a sick axe-rusher. He can find the opponents and know the lay of the land much faster. Along the way he picks up more goody-huts and doesn't risk popping barbs that would slow down the exploration efforts. If he pops tech, great. If he pops more scouts he explores the whole continent in the BC era. If he pops gold it helps him run deficit research while axe-rushing.

4) His UB helps with running a game-long SE, which is great for continued warmongering. Whip/draft game-long.

Thoughts?

 

[Artichoker]

Oracle looks like the most practical wonder because of its low hammer cost.

I'd be looking toward a head start on Metal Casting or Machinery to get access to Macemen.

With Metal Casting, you get the cheap forges and extra happiness.

 

[futurehermit]

Yes, metal casting is a good choice for exactly those reasons. But I also find something to benefit the commerce department is important. So, going for CoL is always tempting as well to get courthouses in place to aid in the recovery effort.

 

[Artichoker]

Yes, metal casting is a good choice for exactly those reasons. But I also find something to benefit the commerce department is important. So, going for CoL is always tempting as well to get courthouses in place to aid in the recovery effort.

How about Colossus?

Oracle for Metal Casting, and then Colossus.

Or if you already have Metal Casting, just build Colossus first.

 

[madscientist]

Stalin is one awesome dude.

However, to utilize his abilities to the max it's best NOT to axe-rush that fast. Use Moscow as a wonderspamming. USe St. Petersburg as the military city and start attacking while keeping Moscow as the wonder monster.

The ideal Stalin game is never having to actually build a barracks in Moscow unless you need the +2 happiness from the barracks.

The only drawback on STalin is no starting food techs and also needs to tech the wheel. Sometimes it's acutally better for him to go agriclulture/archery/AH/fishing in some arder and delay the logical first step of BW.

 

[Gliese 581]

Yes it's interesting that he starts with mining. That should make him one of the best "fair" rushers (not counting Inca or Rome).

 

[troytheface]

not sure agg/indust would fair better than agg/org (Babylon) in so far as
putting together a cohesive early rush.
The only drawback of the later is the crazy uu that can't help much in attack or defence of stacks against chariots and archers-the two main opponents in a early rush.
locating bronze early (mining) may not be as important as getting prepared to find it
later.

 

[johnny_rico]

I'll agree with madscientist that stalin is a total beast. Like all russian civs, because of their UB, I go for a space victory.

Stalin is interesting because when I've played him, the game worked in phases.

Phase I: Early wonderspam in Moscow, scout aggresively to find optimal city drops, REX and build defense

Phase II: Economic recovery, continued wonderspam in Moscow, pick a fight with someone to be fought in my turf (Great Wall assited) to get a Medic or two, go on offense if needed to procure stone/marble and/or possible happiness resources.

Phase III: Use diplomacy and/or war to mess with best competition, if they are a neighbor then eliminate them and grab extra turf, continue building wonders and settling great people in Moscow. The war follows the Taj Mahal GA which hopefully fueled military tradition, replaceable parts, and rifling. Use WP and other means to be able to kick out 10 xp cossacks while drafting and/or whipping rifles. Combat 3 cossacks will own the battlefield in this day and age. This war should be quick and swift maxing out around 15 cities.

Phase IV: Tech through scientific method et al. on route to a space victory. Continue wonderspamming the capital. Go hardcore SE with windmills and environmentalism. Other civics include rep, bureau, caste system, and pacifism. Dealing with emancipation unhappiness isn't that tough to combat. Switch to nationhood if need be. Empire should be kicking out 3000 beakers/turn without a single cottage. Horde your Great People
for late game golden ages to fuel production of space parts. Another war might be needed here to procure aluminum or use a GS to found the corporation that makes aluminum, but you'd might have to switch out of enviro (a civic I've come to really like).

That's not to say most games don't work in phases but I compartmentalize and plan more with someone like stalin because while he has two good traits, I don't think they work well together.

Well, that got a little longer than intended.

Comment for future hermit, the UB is nice for a continued SE. But if you're going for domination, you're going to win well before the UB kicks in. I think in BTS, laboratories are now available under superconductors (that's real far down the tech tree). A domination pursuit should be done by then unless you're just messing around waiting to get to use the UB (which is fine, I like to watch the AIs fall further behind, but it cuts the overall score).

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

He sucks. There are so many better aggressive civs with better UUs, better UBs, and better trait combos.

Ragnar, Hammurabi, Boudica, Shaka, and Alexander all put him to shame.



He's got nothing going for him. His traits don't synergize at all and are counter productive. If your cities are building troops they're not building wonders, and if they're building wonders they're not building troops. Whichever trait you use, the other one becomes useless. His UU is completely useless, one of the worst in the game. The UB is good but comes too late to make a difference.

 

[Bandobras Took]

Ragnar, Hammurabi, Boudica, and Alexander all put him to shame.

Actually, if it came down to it, Stalin's UU would probably beat all of theirs.

Seriously, all you're saying here is that you don't like to play the late-game. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

Stalin becomes good in the late game? what. Other than opening up the media wonders, or getting his UB, nothing about the late game makes him any better. And both of those tech paths are counterproductive to beelining infantry and winning that way.

 

[johnny_rico]

If you have enough land, any leader is good in the late game.

 

[brades]

I got him random once and had a good game which i eventually lost because i was pinned between montezuma and shaka, I eventually took out montezuma and joao but come the modern age shaka whooped on me with a stack of epic proportions forcing me to give up.

 

[CivCorpse]

If you have enough land, any leader is good in the late game.

Loosely translated: Land is power, Land is power , Land is power.

 

[madscientist]

One thing about Stalin, He's one of the Best leaders for a Conquest OCC game!!!

That aside, Stalin rocks early, rifling/cavalry era, late game. He is week, or at least has no benefits during the middle ages.

 

[futurehermit]

Stalin has great rushing potential

Then he builds some wonders to stabilize his economy, etc.

Then he breaks out again in the renaissance while beelining his UB (VERY beeline-able).

Then he cruises to a space victory or late game domination if you want to play it that way

 

[Bandobras Took]

Stalin becomes good in the late game? what. Other than opening up the media wonders, or getting his UB, nothing about the late game makes him any better. And both of those tech paths are counterproductive to beelining infantry and winning that way.

Pentagon. Kremlin. Cossacks. West Point. Space Elevator. Drydocks. Red Cross. Ironworks. Statue of Liberty. Your comment with the Research Institute is that it comes too late; i.e. you don't play the late game. But if you're consistently winning well before then with Stalin, how is he in any way weak?

Come to think of it, how are Cossacks in any way worse off than Cavalry?

And unless you have only one city, why does building troops preclude building Wonders? Are you saying you never build the Globe Theater or Heroic Epic? What about the Maoi Statues?

For that matter, what about Forges?

 

[Gliese 581]

I think he can be quite flexible. You can go for a wonder capital or rush a close neighbour. Use settled GPs if you get the pyramids and late game try to get the UB early. With representation that would typically give you +24 science per city independent of slider ((6+6) x 2). By this stage in the game you usually can build them quite fast, you'll have forges in almost every city bc of industrous so in 7-10 turns say you can have completed labs in 15 cities for + 360 bpt from the extra scientists alone.

 

[Winth]

I think that Stalin is a solid leader. Maybe because I liked Nappy in the vanilla.

Remember that Stalin has those faster forges. Mix it with Organized Religion. A +50% bonus to creating buildings. Which means more time to build units! Which helps with building markets and courthouses, especially at those recently claimed cities.

 

[Agent Cooper]

Well, I'm reading this thread with great interest since I'll be playing Stalin next on Monarch. If the cornerstone of a winning strategy will be wonderspamming Moscow, what national wonders would you place there and would you settle all GP's, except the obvious ones (Academy, Shrine etc.)?

I tried Boudica again recently with basically the same outcome as previous attempts - exceptional failure!

She's a warmonster like no other, but midgame her research and economy tanks and the game goes into slowmotion on her part. I'll try again in a couple of weeks - she's like an itch I can't stop...