Star Trek Mod for Civilization IV...Good Idea?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Creation & Customization' started by Promenthus, Dec 13, 2005.

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Should a Star Trek Mod for Civilization IV be made?

  1. Oh, absolutely, THANK YOU!

    110 vote(s)
    51.4%
  2. Sure, why not?

    58 vote(s)
    27.1%
  3. Meh, I don't really care.

    28 vote(s)
    13.1%
  4. No, that's a stupid idea and a waste of time.

    7 vote(s)
    3.3%
  5. ARE YOU CRAZY?! OF COURSE NOT!

    11 vote(s)
    5.1%
  1. Promenthus

    Promenthus Chieftain

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    1.) I think a pre-Federation start would be most realistic (but not necessary), and there are ways to get around the issues with it. Let players use space probes (like the ancient-Earth Voyager 1/2 or Vikings ;)) for exploration like scouts, the Space Shuttle (of sorts) for a limited early worker, sleeper colony ships (early settlers), and when a certain technology is researched, some kind of immobile missile-armed satellite/ship thing. Also, don't forget, the MX-class was pre-Federation, although I know what you mean in your definition of pre-Federation (prior to warp drive).

    2.) Rapid obsolescence is a huge issue, which is why I agree with a quite epic (but not so epic as 3000 turns!) in which buildings and starships build at something like a Quick or Normal Pace in Civ IV, but technology is researched at an epic or more-than-epic pace like in Civ IV. That way, big fleets, slow technology - fun throughout the ages!

    3.) Starfleet Battles I found...gay...although I can understand why people would like it. So just pardon me, but I would hate implementing anything from that game.

    4.) I was thinking of splitting the game into these eras: Pre-Warp, Early Warp (or ENT), ENT (or TOS), TOS (or TNG), TNG (or VOY/NEM), and VOY/NEM (or Post-VOY/NEM). Note that NEM is for Nemesis (the movie).

    5.) You are so right, Borg are way too overpowered. However, maybe in a specific scenario, they could be a specialized "barbarian nation" that has declared war on everyone (permanently) and threaten to assimilate all with their superiority...unless, of course, we of the Alpha, Beta, and Gamma Quadrants unify against this common threat ;). They will start quite advanced but extremely isolated from everyone;.

    6.) Now for a specialized scenario, the map would be extra-huge and one would probably need at least 1 GB of RAM to run the mod. There would be a few starting solar systems for each civilization, with HUGE tracts of space between these starting systems. Needless to say, the whole calculation for maintenance based on distance from capital would be radically changed, as settling a new city in the immensity of "galaxy-size" maps would be something like -5 for your second city ;).

    7.) My ideas for resources:
    Strategic Resources
    Deuterium - Fusion-/Antimatter-based Buildings, as well as pre-warp weapons (all vessels except the very starting ones will require this resource)
    Dilithium - All Warp-Capable ships will need this resource.
    Duranium - Low-End Trek Warships like the NX-Class (warships like the Daedalus-Class will not require this resource, they are before Federation...far before)
    Tritanium - Mid-End Warships like the Intrepid- or Constitution-Class
    Neutronium - High-End Warships like the Sovereign- or Prometheus-Class
    Omega - Extremely Advanced, Beyond-Nemesis Ships/Buildings

    Luxuries/Extra: INCOMPLETE
    Latinum - Basically Gold from Civ IV
    Tellerium - Stone/Marble from Civ IV
    Argonite - Increase Happiness
    Synthehol - Boost Happiness
    Neodynium - Stone/Marble from Civ IV
    Exotic Flora - Probably like Gold or Gems from Civ IV

    I have no clue about a food/health system, or if it should be replaced with resource management or crap like that.

    8.) Thanks to Python, and to cut down on the messy business of travelling all those lightyears to get to the Andorians with a big, bad fleet :evil:, wormhole scripts can be implemented! That's right, certain tiles will warp you some GREAT distance to another part of the galaxy...*drools*

    9.) Combat System - As I hinted at before, if we could bring back the bombardment system of Civ IV, certain ship types could augment others, such as bombardment vessels to weaken enemy stacks which then your main ships take out. Also, like Civ IV tried to do, we'll have a rock-paper-scissors ship class system, in which battleships have a bonus VS cruisers, but a penalty against bombardment vessels or something, forcing the player to use a truly balanced army, or else get wasted by a single ship type.
     
  2. Georgina

    Georgina Chieftain

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    To the resources: perhaps you could add Titanium (for the NX). I think Neutronium should be left out, as neither the Fed nor even the Borg can use it (VOY Think Thank). If the mod should be canon, omega should be left out too, as nobody uses it. Of course, if you want an what-if Szenario, it is possible to use it. Nitrium would also be a possible Resource. Luxuries: Romulan Ale (the name says it),Ketracel White(required for Jem'Hadar units), Klingon Bloodwine.
    To the units: have you already thought about how relatively strong the starships should be?
    So here are my ideas(fed ships):
    NX 3
    Daedalus 5
    Constitution 8
    Miranda 10
    Oberth 3
    Constellation 12
    Excelsior 14
    Ambassador 16
    Galaxy 20
    Steamrunner 15; Cheaper
    Akira 24; Cheaper
    Defiant 18; Cheaper
    Intrepid 14
    Sovereign 30
    Prometheus 45
    Self-replicating mines 50; immobile and invisible

    if you think something should be changed, just say it.
    Sorry for my bad english, hope you understand it.;)
     
  3. Ranbir

    Ranbir Civ junkie

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    We'll need to do something with Culture.

    Really, a split between culture and political borders.

    Also, religions.

    I thought one religion being like the UFP, but then it spreading into other planets....weird.

    Aside from that, I'm happy to help in whatever capacity.

    Me= Trekkie


    Edit: I don't think Prometheus should have stronger strength than Sovereign. However, give it certain starting promotions that make it unique. First strikes can help accomodate for it being able to split into 3.

    Stuff like that.
     
  4. Corvex

    Corvex Emperor of Canada

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    If you were to implement religion, you should have:
    Bajoran (worshipping the Prophets)
    Ferengi (their god is the Great Exchequer; the profitable go to the divine treasury, the unprofitable go to the Vault of Eternal Destitution)
    Klingon (They killed all of their gods, but Kahless is a central figure)
    Vulcan (Total logic. It's not really a religion per se, but it does seem to have certain mystical elements)
    Dominion (All Dominion subjects have been genetically engineered to worship the founders.)

    There are probably a few others, but I can't think of them right now. Obviously, you couldn't implement religion in this mod the same way it was done in the regular game, but I'm not precisely sure how it could be done.
     
  5. Georgina

    Georgina Chieftain

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    Well, if Promenthus wants to have a rock-paper-scissor system, the strengths have to be changed anyway. My list should only give an idea.
    Well, here are Klingons and Romulans.

    Raptor 2
    D5 4
    K’vort 6
    B’rel 4
    D7 10
    K’T’inga 12
    Vorch’a 18
    K’vort II 24
    Neg’Var 35

    Bird of Prey 3
    Bird of PreyII 6
    D7 10
    (here might be another class of ship, but as the Romulans were isolated by then, we cannot know.Perhaps we should invite something.)
    Warbird 18
    Warbird II 24
    Norexan 32
    Scimitar 45

    All the ships except the Raptor, the D5 and the K'vort Bird of Prey can cloak.
     
  6. Ranbir

    Ranbir Civ junkie

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    Birth of the Federation is good to look at for 'city' improvements and tech trees. Even Wonders for the specific races.

    We could also borrow their ship classes.

    Scout Class, Destroyer Class, Cruiser Class, Strike Cruiser, Command Cruiser, Heavy Cruiser, Colony ship, Transport ship, Outposts/Stations.

    Each class had II, so as to represent 'refits' upgraded versions of each ship. (makes them last longer too)

    Ick...we're really going to include stuff from "Enterprise" ? Really, it distorted and ruined the Trek universe! Please don't!

    LI'w'I' (colony)
    ChowghwI' (transport)
    B'rel Bird of Prey(scout)
    K'vort Bird of Prey (destroyer)

    etc...

    If the RPS style is wanted between ships, then those classes are a good place to look at first.
     
  7. sovarn

    sovarn Warlord

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    The way the ships will be handled is using the upgrades system too.

    Such as "quantum torpedoes" & "ablative armour". Some ships like the defiant will start with these upgrade but the rest will have to win battles - sort of like retrofitting.

    This will keep the mod canon while allowing for flexibility and variety.
     
  8. Georgina

    Georgina Chieftain

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    edit:sorry for the double-post, I'm still having little problems with the forum
     
  9. Georgina

    Georgina Chieftain

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    All right, we needn't use them, if you don't want too, but there is no other kind of source for information about that time... and at least the Klingon and Romulan ships sound logical and do not break other Trek canon facts. We can still think about wether the NX class should be used later. At least, we will not let an NX class animation use photon(ic) :D Torpedos and Phasers.
    Here are the Dominion ships:
    (In times before the TNG-era, we have to either isolate the dominion or invite ships)
    Attack Ship 16 (using an Animation with three Attack ships, so it's realistic)
    Battlecruiser26
    Battleship 35
    Dreadnaught 50
    Breen Light Cruiser 10
    Breen Heavy Cruiser 16
    Polaron and Breen weapons can be representated by promotions,so they are stronger than it's said here. When their effects are deleted, they should have about these strenghts against the fed ships.
     
  10. Ranbir

    Ranbir Civ junkie

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    We can have many things be represented through promotions.

    It can represent the 'refits' of olderships which can keep them around longer.

    Hell, we could even have promotions which are starship captains. Special promotions of course, imagine one of your Sovereign Class ships with the "Picard" promotion (meaning he is commanding that ship)
    Thus, that particular ship is better than the other sovereign classes. :)


    I'm really iffy on religion system here. But if it does go for the Founders, Klingon faith, etc, then it needs to be carefully thought out. Would seem the Founder's religion spreading all places. Or even a single planet with all 7. Especially given the Dominion's faith! Specific units? That would usually be attributed to the specific empires itself anyway.
     
  11. Georgina

    Georgina Chieftain

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    Is there a way to give promotions by buildings (or by paying money, etc.)?
    If yes, we should have three kinds of promotions: experience promotions, given by the usual way, refit promotions, given by paying money, perhaps only in cities with the "Shipyard" improvement,and Captain promotions, given only to specific ships by eventscripting and only to one ship (maybe two, if the first is destroyed). Those have specific effects( Picard has a bonus against the Borg and has an (additional) first strike (Picard Maneuver), Sisko has a bonus against the Dominion...)
    Quantum Torpedos or ablative armour might be refit promotions, but they shouldn't be aquired (how is it spelled?) by winning battles, as this was quite irrealistic.
    Btw, do you aggree with my ships' strengths? I've never watched DS9, so for some ships I had to rely on Fansites.
     
  12. Bilas

    Bilas Chieftain

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  13. Ranbir

    Ranbir Civ junkie

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    The bonuses for captains shouldn't be against a specific enemy, but each special to the individual captain.

    Of course, this will bring a big debate on what each captain was good at. Tricky!

    DS9 was interesting, since it had a new show formula, which was a good thing after two of exploration on a ship. Enterprise was one of the classic formula and sucked horribly. DS9 had some of the best writing.
     
  14. Corvex

    Corvex Emperor of Canada

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    I think that the characters were certainly among the most interesting on Deep Space Nine.
    Enterprise's suckiness wasn't so much that it used the classic formula as much as the fact that many of missions of exploration were really boring.
     
  15. Promenthus

    Promenthus Chieftain

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    Sorry for not responding for such a long time, this project is FAR from dead! My apologies to anyone that I have offended, particularly on the matter of DS9's quality. Sovarn and I have already begun work on the mod, although it's going pretty slowly because the lack of an SDK.

    We have decided on six main eras for the mod: Pre-Warp, Early Warp, Enterprise, TOS, TNG, and Voyager/Nemesis. Our main focus is also to make VERY epic; after the first two or three eras, technological advancement will significantly slow down (ex. 10-20 turns for one tech), but unit costs will remain low throughout the game. The end result is that rapid obsolescence will not occur and players will be able to maintain relatively large armies throughout ALL eras while maintaining impressive economies.

    Terrain has been coded in for the most part, all that remains are special effects (such as wormholes) and the actual artwork. There are two basic terrain types: space (in star systems) and deep space (between star systems). Various classes of planets will occur within space, along with stars, asteroid systems, the remnants of ancient civilizations ("goody huts"), etc. In deep space, you can expect wormholes, black holes, pulsars, and nebulae.

    Units will be divided into 9 categories, with a HUGE emphasis on unit balance:

    Support: "People Units", such as Great People, "missionaries", and 'captains'.

    Civilian: Space ships and starships that either are unarmed or can only defend. They are basically 'worker' and 'settler' units, but we might include 'cargo ships' so that players can play a more active role in trading and their economies.

    (Note: Shuttlecraft MAY be included in either Civilian or Support)

    Exploratory: Starships (and some pre-warp units) which are suitable for mainly exploration and gain benefits such as increased sensor range. They are rather poorly-armed and should generally not be used for war. Ex. Intrepid-class

    Light Escort: Starships such as the Defiant-Class, which are small, cheap, and fast-moving. They gain a +25/50% bonus VS artillery ships, but have a -25/50% penalty VS frigates.

    Frigates: Starships such as the NX-Class or Sabre-Class, which are relatively small and decently fast. They gain a +25/50% bonus VS light escorts, but have a -25/50% penalty VS cruisers.

    Cruisers: Starships such as the Akira-Class, which are of moderate size and somewhat fast. The gain a +25/50% bonus VS frigates, but have a -25/50% penalty VS battleships.

    Battleships: Starships such as the Galaxy-Class or Sovereign-Class, which are large, powerful ships capable of planetary bombardment. They gain a +25/50% bonus VS cruisers, but have a -25/50% penalty VS artillery ships.

    Artillery Ships: Starships such as the Steamrunner-Class, which are moderately-sized ships outfitted with special munitions. They are capable of planetary bombardment. They gain a +25/50% bonus VS battleships, but have a -25/50% penalty VS light escorts.

    Tactical Warships: Starships such as the Prometheus-Class, which are moderate to large in size and are equipped with extremely advanced technology and gain a few "special promotions". They are capable of planetary bombardment, but do not gain any bonuses or penalties VS other ship classes.
    (NOTE: Strengths in Star Trek Reborn will be rather extreme, to prevent outdated ships from taking down fully-powered advanced ships. However, damage penalties will be far more severe, so a Constitution-Class that has 50/100 HP will have very low STR and can be taken down by a fully-powered NX-Class.)

    As can be inferred, BALANCE YOUR UNITS OR DIE!!!! :mad: *hugs* :mischief:
    (NOTE: We may also add in race-specific and ship-specific bonuses to further mix the action up, as well as specific anti-promotion promotions!)

    As much as I would LOVE to include almost every civilization possible in Star Trek, because of the total lack of information for the vast majority of them, we have decided on four Star Trek races --- The United Federation of Planets (Humanity), Romulan Star Empire, Klingon Empire, and Cardassian Union. Each will have four leaders, and for RANDOM MAPS (on larger settings), there will be more than one UFP, Romulan Empire, etc. However, for specific scenarios (Battle of Wolf 359 [something like that], Dominion War) we will be developing additional civilizations.

    With that, come our new and improved civilization traits...

    Scientific: +100% GP birth rate, +25% Science in all cities (acts like a "Library")

    Militaristic: ALL units receive Tactical Refit I for free (+10% str).

    Industrious: +50% Wonder Building, +1 Shield/Hammer on all tiles producing at least 2 shields/hammers

    Financial: +1 Commerce on all tiles producing at least 2 commerce, +25% Gold in all cities (acts like a "Bank")

    Expansive: +4 Health in all "cities" (known as colonies), +25% Culture in all cities (acts like a "Temple")

    Organized: No Anarchy, -50% Civic Upkeep

    Religion is a serious matter, and we will be using a "religion-esque" system in Star Trek Reborn in the form of "Official Policies". Official Policies will still work in the same way as religions, but each will have different effects (ex. Holy War will boost military, Humanitarianism will boost diplomacy and happiness). Each official policy will have specific buildings and civics that can FURTHER boost the policies' benefits, but will only be active when that policy is your official one (analogous to STATE religion). This is achievable through Python.

    (NOTE: ALL OF THE INFORMATION YOU HAVE SEEN AND MAY SEE ON OUR GAME MANUAL AND EXCEL FILES IS PRONE TO CHANGE AND WILL PROBABLY NOT TOTALLY DEFINE OUR END GAME PLAN)
     
  16. Corvex

    Corvex Emperor of Canada

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    Will there be any minor, unplayable civilizations (like in Birth of the Federation)?
     
  17. Promenthus

    Promenthus Chieftain

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    Of course, it just wouldn't be enjoyable or very canon not to have some kind of minor civilizations or barbarians on random maps (ex. Xindi). Obviously if and when we get into modding actual scenarios, there will be minor civilizations (like Bajor) that could be part of your objective (ex. if you are UFP, defend it from the Dominion/Cardassians).

    I also would like to use this post to remind people that we are designing an interactive, unique game mod, not a static movie, plot, or story. That means we won't be 100% canon all the time, and we will be encouraging various styles of play. Want to be a maniacal leader of the United Federation of Planets and go on an Evil Terran Empire rampage? Go right ahead. Want to conveniently "forget" the peace treaty that you signed with the Romulans and design a cloak for your Federation ships? SURE!

    So I'm declaring it now for all of you ridiculously devout Star Trek fans --- we are not perfect and neither will this mod be relative to the Star Trek timeline. Our plan is not to force players to make the galaxy end up the way it is in the show --- they can do so if they want, but we want them to have flexbility.
     
  18. Ranbir

    Ranbir Civ junkie

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    Have Cargo ships like the great merchant unit, except you know, less powerful. This can be a speciality for the Ferengi of course. A special ship for them.

    As for the requirement to go warp travel, make it a wonder. It can be specific wonder, each for each civ. Example: Federation has the "Phoenix" wonder that it needs to be able to begin warp travel.

    Also, most ships first have prototypes, think NX registry. These can be mini wonders too. Before you can start mass producing Galaxy class starships, you'll have to build the prototype which can be reflected as a miniwonder. When the 'prototype' wonder is built, you get a free galaxy class starship and are now able to build more galaxy class ships.

    I don't like the class names you have, they aren't very Trekky. 'Battleships' can be best made 'Command Cruiser'. As you'll expect these ships to be headlining fleets and well, being the flagships.

    Also, we could wing it by adding Ferengi to the playables. And maybe even the Dominion. I could help out there in whatever info you need.

    As for minor races, I think it would be better to also have them as 'wonders'. An idea which is a mix between Birth of the Federation and the 'minor civs' of here. Say, for example. We have "Bajor" as a wonder. What would building this wonder represent? Firstly, discovery. Discovery then allows another wonder, which is of course, having them join your civ/empire. This in turn allows you to build specific Bajoran buildings like the Bajoran jalanda forum. This might seem a bit out there, but could help reflect minor races joining your empire and the like. Obviously, what this can't do is reflect military subjagation of them, as was possible in BoTF. Still, it's something to consider, and allows for variation of each kingdom and does make them feel...'populated' with more than just one race. Especially for the Federation which is the very foundation of it.

    Also, be very interesting to have the Borg as random 'events' and the barbarian units. One Borg cube enough to be a threat for everyone.(but not invincible) Actually, we can have each spawn match itself to what destroyed the previous cube. A basic way to reflect the borg "adapting". If a borg ship got destroyed with a certain ship(taking into consideration it's promotions.) The next borg ship will be stronger or immune to it. This phase can happen of course until the near final tech of anti borg weaponary. Exciting!
     
  19. Promenthus

    Promenthus Chieftain

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    Great ideas, thanks for contributing.

    1.) That's exactly what we're planning to do with cargo ships :) . It will also create some interesting micromanagement work because "barbarians" (space pirates and Ferengi) will spawn and prey on them unless you assign an escort for them :D .

    2.) It is my belief that warp travel should just be made accessible by a technology (Warp Drive) and resources (Dilithium and Deuterium). However, we are planning on implementing either "great wonders" or "world projects" such as the Pheonix Warp Project as a way to either boost the rate at which one researches "warp drive" technologies throughout the game, or as a way of getting a "quick-fix movement boost" for your units.

    3.) Prototypes, eh? Interesting idea, I have to admit....

    4.) I fully agree, those names are not too Trekky. I love Star Trek (have watched every episode of TNG, VOY, and ENT), but I am by no means an extreme nerd into it. I am quite a bit of a technology freak of Star Trek, but I don't memorize every single little detail. That is why we need volunteers (who will get their due credit) for research and consultation.

    5.) As I've stated before, even the most devout Star Trek fans will have one hell of a hard time trying to find enough information on Ferengi and Dominion starships from Early Warp to Post-Nemesis.

    6.) Fascinating idea on minor races, but I want to refrain from getting too "religious" in a Star Trek mod. Our plans are to create multiple minor civilizations for scenarios (and random maps, if possible!) that you can either assimilate (culturally, not the :borg: way) or dominate (diplomacy for Kirk was with a phaser and smirk). These minor civilizations [such as Vulcans, Andorians, etc.], consisting of a single planet and with weak capabilities, will not be able to colonize additional planets. I think that's fairly UFP-ish enough.

    7.) I wish I could write Python code well enough! That would be awesome to implement, though a tad bit evil. I don't think that will be implemented in random maps (though it's very well possible), but it will be included in a specific "VS Borg" scenario.

    EDIT: Heh, just felt like adding a bit more information.

    8.) For refits of older starships...well, we're planning on using two types of promotions: EXP promotions and paid promotions. Most promotions will be EXP (ex. Tactical Refit [Combat] I, Repair Crew I) but advanced technologies (ex. quantum torpedos, regenerative shielding) will come automatically on newer starships but will have to be 'purchased' for your older ones. =)

    9.) As for the idea of captains (which is positively fabulous), there will be no Picard VS Kirk disputes =p. Instead, different classes of starships will have different "crew capacities", that is, they will be able to 'transport' a limited number of support units [see above]. Starship captains will overall improve the starship's capabilities once "loaded" onto one. Different captain names WILL NOT give different bonuses. Certain promotions and technological upgrades will increase a starship's capacity (pending).
     
  20. Ranbir

    Ranbir Civ junkie

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    Is 9) a kind of similar to civ3's army thing then? That's real interesting and look forward to seeing how that goes.

    For 4) I can help whenever asked on such and such, I have a big pile of ST factfiles collecting dust.

    6) Thanks, and hey, if what you're saying is possible, then it's ok.

    This has made me reinstall Botf.


    edit:
    Normally, with my 1gig RAM, a huge map can get a bit slow when everything is discovered. However, civ scale really helps lessen the load. Firstly, Star Trek won't need that crowd coverage, that's one system hog gone. Also, I don't expect many of the improvements to be 'animated', and if they were, not that stressing. I can honestly only see us having outposts and starbases slowly spinning. We wouldn't have swinging trees. Also, the unit graphic will be singular, over the 3. And in addition, making them slightly smaller, can 1: help give the sense that the map really is massive, and 2: again reduce strain. This way, we can also easily show differences in ship sizes. Dwarfed by a Borg Cube anyone? Scaling planets and such can also be interesting. Planets of differing sizes!
     

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