Discussion in 'Team CivFanatics' started by Aivoturso, Jun 22, 2012.
22 according to the one I've been attempting to maintain in the Team Information thread.
OK, I checked the number from the public roster. So a bit over a half has stated their opinion. This time I'm in favour of calling an official vote on this to avoid people feeling left out this early in the game
There are 24 players on the team. I think our important decisions (like city locations) should be made by discussion rather than a simple majority vote. Something like what we name our city can be good for a straight poll. That's my opinion.
Another thing I should mention here, is that this issue is going to continue coming up, ie whether the majority of those posting reflects the majority of the team. So I will say again my preference is to have an actual Team approved procedure that is followed to the letter on any Official polls. This procedure should be established before we have any Official polls on anything. Again, just my opinion, but based on experience
I'm gonna guess those would be more stringent than "call a poll whenever you feel like it".
I was just thinking of running a newstyle one-post-per-voter poll on capital position using the Borda count described above. Does anyone have a suggestion for a more permanent procedure?
EDIT: Also, how do we actually gauge the positions of those who don't post? Especially in a discussion-based decision?
With 24 people, there's bound to be someone missing every day. And if you're not there, you can't really complain that no-one listened to your opinion.
We probably have a couple of days still, before we need to decide on this, but when we have a turn a day, there's gonna be a quite natural deadline for each decision, no?
Sommers, can you point in the general direction of where you posted that proposal for what constitutes an official poll?
On this issue I'm all for a consensus-driven approach -- I'm almost always in favor of that btw, as you might have noticed.. -- but if we end up with binary alternatives, a vote can't really harm.
In general, I prefer consensus over polls as well.
And I am fine with SIP. Would be my second choice after PH.
If we SIP, then indeed we should go for Pottery quite fast, but Agri should be first.
From the Team CFC Constitution thread:
It looks like 16 individuals have posted in this thread, so if two more voice a preference for SIP, then we have at least a majority of those that have posted an opinion on this topic.
And I think Agri is a prereq for Pottery anyway, so that's good.
And I don't think I ever told you that I LOVE your avatar. I too am a Star-Trek and Football fan (although for me its (North) American Football) I can't wait for the next Star-Trek movie to come out
Anyway, off topic... I don't see how else we can go other than SIP at this point unless somebody does some great test that proves some other location is just gangbusters.
That, or moving the warrior reveals some awesome resources in the fog. But yeah, sip and Agri sounds pretty locked in.
And I think you were pretty "on topic" for this thread
I was talking about the Star trek stuff as in that stuff was off topic
For the record, I'll vote for settling in place. I'd prefer a commerce capital over a production capital.
I agree fully on all accounts. The better defininitions we have on this before the game starts, the less potential for intra-team conflicts that may turn ugly.
I will add my vote to SIP btw!
And whb? ... Just ...
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Sorry I am late to the party. I got approved recently.
Gut reaction is settle on the plains hill where the warrior is. Early production bonus and access to 3 tiles that will produce 6 food/hammers early and the bonus of the early "free" hammer from settling on the plains hill means we will expand significantly faster.
I wanted to post my opinion before it was too late (as I don't have a clear idea yet how this group will function or when we have to decide). I'll try to go back now and read all the other posts carefully.
problem here is teching AH... well you can check the test saves to T40 I did.
we will need commerce soonish since the start doesn't have natural source and we can't stall too much cottages.
our RB team competition could with this start work first financial cottage T15(16) cca.
there is no production problem with PH and for example BW start to chop out couple of things, but settlers come too soon.
the same danger awaits us if we go for example agri->hunting->AH, well this one I didn't test out yet, maybe could, but I think it will be similar in some aspects to the BW opening.
I ran 2 tests out to T45
SIP and settle on warrior's Plain Hill
Has 2 cities (5,2) 7 pop and at 100% science 22 beakers at -3 gold
Has researched Agri, The Wheel, Pottery, Writing and has about 10 OF beakers
It has 3 cottages (4 in 2 turns) has put in 18 turns of cottage develop spread out among those 3 cottages
It has 3 warriors has invested 6 hammers in Stonehenge (for failure gold)
It has invested 18 and 36 hammers into granaries
empire stats 31 GNP, 9 Prod, 24 crop yield
Settling on PH
Has 3 cities (4,3,1) and at 100% science getting 22 beakers at -5 gold
Has researched Hunting, Agri, The Wheel, Pottery, and 90/180 of Animal Handling
It has 2 cottages and has put 2 turns into cottage development
It has 3 warriors has invested 36 hammers in Stonehenge (for failure gold)
It has invested 18 and 36 hammers into granaries
33 GNP, 6 Prod, 35 crop yield
So SIP has about 40 more raw research and certainly has more cottage development however the difference in crop yield is very telling. It is producing about 24 food versus 35 food! That food yield difference is going to snowball and settling on the warrior plains hill game is going to get to build more cities faster and will get to work many more tiles (i.e. more cottages!) that much faster so it will easily catch up on the early commerce advantage of SIP.
by T45 settling on the plains hill is about equal to SIP research rate wise.
I believe I addressed the concerns many had about settling on the plains hill. Naming the lack of early research. You can leverage the early production advantage it has into more research if you gun for expansion and for early pottery.
SIP does have more hammers invested into granaries, but I believe settling on the warrior plain hill game invested in the 3rd city instead which will be better long term. Also the warrior plain hill game has more invested into stonehenge for failure gold.
I think settling on the warrior plains hill is significantly better. It can exceed the commerce output of the SIP game by T45 and has 1 more city that will snowball into a larger and stronger empire.
would be better if you would aim for the same size of capital and same number of cities, unless it's not possible (the former is certainly possible).
And of course if we all made the tests to the same turn...if people delibirately move the end test turn so the outcome looks better then it has very low value...
this way I will have to retest everything again to T45 to see myself.
what about on bananas ?
I tried to play the 2 paths to their natural advantage. There is clear advantage to play the SIP game to a size 5 capital since it has 5 nice tiles to work that I could improve ( floodplains cottages)
The settle-on-the-warrior's-plains-hill game doesn't have a nice 5th tile to work so I didn't let the capital grow to 5.
I stopped at T45 because that was when I could settle the 3rd city in the plains hill game and when the beakers on the plains hill game equaled the SIP game's beakers. After T45 the test becomes mostly not relevant because we would need to see what was in the fog.
If I played the SIP out to the point where I had 3 cities the plains hill game would have just looked that much better since it has more food production and roughly the same commerce rate.
The plains hill game has roughly the same research power and significantly more food production at T45. Yes if I had chosen a different stopping point it would been harder to tell what the difference is. For example, how can you evaluate what a partially built settler means?
There didn't seem to be much support for settling on the bananas. However, I tried a quick game and it is competitive. Slightly better commerce, and has 3 cities like settling on the plains hill. I misplayed the quick test since I didn't put a road on the corn foolishly, so banana is even better since the 2nd city I placed has health issues.
I could be convinced banana is the best (there is some risk we are settling on bronze or iron with the warrior's plains hill).
well that is the task of scouting...
I am not convinced yet... I know the deer tile is super strong (dunno why you didn't opt for improving corn before deer though) and on bananas offers a bit better commerce (doesn't lose the flood plains), lacks cows otoh
but cows are nonfactor for first 50 turns and even more (depends on the pressure for AH with the land around capital, if we don't see more AH resources there is possibility we should just completely skip AH until we get BW, archery, writing, since plains cow on itself doesn't warrant teching AH)
If I remember right on bananas offer T40 3 cities empire with finished pottery research at T40 (first cottage around T45), so basically from what I saw done with PH it's cca 5 turns quicker city 3, would have to search for the crop yields at T40 and possibly T45 (but problem is lack of area vision so we can't see what kind of food will be around)...
not sure why people didn't found the test with bananas provided impressive at all.
I was impressed with banana but we need a decision afterall...
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