Discussion in 'Team CivFanatics' started by Aivoturso, Jun 22, 2012.
I do find it impressive.
About setling on waroiur hill, we end up witha capitol without any floodplains , or even cotages, and here we dont play SP to bulb PHILo and get bunch of techs for that.When you do test you have to think long term too.
If we are voting I would vote
1) settle on the banana
similar stats on settle on banana that I did for the other test games are in the spoiler
at 100% science 23 beakers at -5 gold
3 cities (4,3,1) capital will grow next turn
19 hammers on granary in capital 3 on granary in 2nd city
3rd city settled T44
20 hammers invested on stonehenge for eventual fail gold (assumed) (could be 4th warrior instead)
2 cottages that have been worked for 6 turns total, 3rd cottage next turn on a floodplain, could have had 3 cottage earlier if built on non-FP
total raw beakers produced is approximately (within 10) of SIP.
research agriculture, hunting, The Wheel, Pottery and 130 on Bronze working
no risk of settling on hidden resource
capital wouldn't have to be moved since it has significant number of river tiles in its BFC, and 2 side cities that could be placed to grow its cottages for it.
long term loss of the a worked banana tile, but short term gains are so much more important.
2) settle on the warrior's plain hill
I agree with vranasm that settling on the banana is the best opening. I didn't like it because it leaves out the cows, but testing does prove it to be the best. At least as far as I can tell.
I tried a different build path than vranasm's original test game
worker, grow to 2 on warrior partial build, settler, finish warrior, partial stonehenge build to 3, 2nd worker, stonehenge build until pop 4, then 2nd settler
built a the 3rd worker in the 2nd city.
In all my games I researched agriculture first and improved the corn first. I just listed hunting first in my previous post because I was being lazy.
If we settle on the warrior's plains hill, I would expect that we would eventually move the capital.
The early advantage of settling on the bananas or the warrior's plains hill would more than make up for the cost of moving the capital. A cost of 160 hammers could easily be absorbed by a civilization that has expanded faster and is in a stronger position than one that settles in place.
I supose you are sure we can find a beter spot or at least equal with setling on place for capitol, and dont forget we will want an academy and we will have to build it in city which will not be very profitable(future capitol)
I agree setling on Banana will be the fastest, but long term its much weaker than setling on place.
By turn 45 setliing on place can have:
3 cities : 4 1 1
2warious(1 turn to finish another one)
5 turns to Bw or AH finished.
Given the lack of consensus (as far as I can tell) on an Official voting process, I will continue to update my unofficial count:
In place: 9 (Sommerswerd (bananas as 2nd choice), Aivoturso (PH as 2nd choice), bistrita, tobaism (next leading commerce site as 2nd choice), talonschild (next leading commerce site as 2nd choice), whb, cav scout (1W is 2nd choice), RegentMan, Caledorn)
ph: 3, or 4? (YossarianLives (bananas as 2nd choice), bowsling, socralynnek, Jovan Kukic?)
Banana: 2 (vranasm (SIP as 2nd choice), bcool (PH as 2nd choice))
Southern hill: 0
This is a better test to compare to my tests. I was mistaken when I didn't try to go for 3 cities. However it still falls short when you look at the crop yield and commerce for the banana start.
You suggest that SIP is significantly better in the future why?
If you look at excess food and number of cottages worked bananas vs SIP
bananas (assuming it works corn, deer, 2 FP cottages)
5 pop (add grass riverside cottage) 12 excess food 3 riverside cottages
6 pop (add plains riverside cottage) 11 excess food 4 riverside cottages
7 pop (add plains riverside cottages) 10 excess food 5 riverside cottages (-1 without a granary and just corn if we keep a forest and the deer forested)
8 pop (add grass cottage) 10 excess food 5 riverside, 1 non cottages (-1 with a granary and just corn)
9 pop (add grass cottage) 10 excess food 5 riverside, 2 non cottages (-1 with a granary, corn and deer)
10 pop (add grass cottage) 10 excess food 5 riverside, 3 non cottages (? )
11 pop (add grass cottage) 10 excess food 5 riverside, 4 non cottages (? )
SIP (assuming it works corn, farmed banana, 2 FP cottages)
5 pop (add FP cottage) 11 excess food 3 riverside cottages (-1 without a granary and just corn)
6 pop (add FP cottage) 12 excess food 4 riverside cottages (-1 with a granary and just corn)
7 pop (add grass riverside cottage) 12 excess food 5 riverside cottages (-1 with a granary corn and deer)
8 pop (add grass riverside cottage) 12 excess food 6 riverside cottages (? )
9 pop (add plains riverside cottage) 11 excess food 7 riverside cottages
10 pop (add plains riverside cottage) 10 excess food 8 riverside cottages
11 pop (add grass cottage) 10 excess food 8 riverside cottages 1 non
As you can see the excess food with either settling decision is roughly equal. Banana has a slight early advantage while SIP has a slight midterm advantage but probably will run into at least some health issues depending on what we find in the fog.
I didn't look at hammers but the hammer potential of both sites isn't significantly different until we research steampower can get a levee for the SIP capital. I don't have much experience with multi player civ games but I doubt the late production from a levee is going to make the difference. By then we presumably will have 1 or more production cities going if the game lasts that long.
Banana does have a lower commerce potential.
Each non riverside cottage essentially costs 40 commerce (since we don't get the bonus commerce for 10 turns) while it grows to a hamlet and then produces 1 less commerce per turn for the rest of the game
Settling on banana will cost us a one time cost of 120 commerce for working 3 non riverside cottages
and 3 commerce per turn for the rest of the game (which probably will be multiplied by 1.5 with bureaucracy)
SIP once we research calendar T120? will get an additional food from the banana planatation.
SIP costs us a forest which is at least 30 hammers
So does the faster expansion of the settling on the banana and saving the forest make up for the later hit of 120 commerce and 3 less commerce output?
I think it easily does. We expand faster and so everything our empire produces will be faster. We get settlers faster so those cities can build everything they build for us faster. We get out our initial worker out faster (with the help of the unimproved deer tile). That worker improves every tile a turn faster for the rest of the game.
we could even speculate on sooner matured cottages due to city 2/3 being online at least 3 turns sooner (I think at some points it could be even 5 turns difference...for city 3 most probably or something like that)
the commerce potential of bananas is slightly weaker, but will kick in around T120, due to horizontal expansion in first 70 turns.
at that point we hopefully will see at least 8 cities empire if we don't end blocked.
would be optimal to grow nonriverside cottages with helper cities before the capital can get into the 8+ sizes...
Only problem could be that you dont have for a while improvments which are realy worth building going for hunting first,and even for potery we will spam roads or build some mines.
In every start there are always going to be a few wasted worker turns. I don't think there really are that many with settling on bananas and going agriculture--> hunting--> wheel --> pottery. Sure I would rather be building a cottage than a farm but you can't argue with results
by T45 settling on the bananas exceeds SIP in food production rate and commerce. It has produced more stuff, it has more population, and it is researching faster. This gap will only get larger as you play deeper into the game.
I don't agree that building couple of roads or some hills will be wasted... sure building cottage would be probably better then road if we already have connected city 2
but we surely will need worker turns on road into cities 3 location
hills we will need too and the riverside grassland hill has 5-yield output too...it's strong tile
the only problem is travel distance from deer moving workers zig-zag is not good
if we settle on bananas we need at least 1 road to connect to river for instaconnection with city 2.
Actualy i strong disagree with that,with 2 more flood plain cottages worked, and 1 riverside gras will let behind bana in output clearly.And when build a library, academy, will make a huge diference having those tiles to work.
Again, going hunting first will delay potery with 7-8 turns,and that will delay AH with 3-4 turns or Bw with same number of turns and worker will produce in the beggining some improvments which we will not use for a while.
In your tests , setling second city near those flood plains looks like a viable solution, and its not , its very weak second city, no seen resource to work , no forest to chop.Setling second city for deer , has a resource and some forest to chop. If we find a betere second city spot your sim its completly out because we'll end up not working those cotages wich you made for it.
I agree that more map knowledge might lead to different settling decisions.
I'm trying to understand your point here. You are saying that the team would make worse settling decisions with more map knowledge? And thus the banana settling site would be worse?
If there are better settling sites then banana should be farther ahead of SIP since it produces settlers faster. Perhaps we get a gold mine up faster, or we settle a 2nd city with even more FP to develop into cottages. All of this would happen faster than SIP.
It is true that the banana site gets up cottages a bit slower than SIP and beelining pottery, however total commerce output of the banana site empire by T45 is equal to or better than SIP.
In terms of just capital commerce SIP has the same commerce potential until it is over 7 population. After 7 popultion it has 120 commerce +3 commerce per turn advantage since it has 3 more riverside tiles to work. The banana site however grows faster to pop 7 and thus will be able to work more riverside cottages faster than SIP (in addition to contributing to a larger empire). The banana site also saves a forest that we could use to chop a granary or library which would put it farther ahead of SIP. Or the banana site has more excess food so it can whip the granary and/or library and recover faster than the SIP capital could.
So the banana site will get a library earlier, it will have more excess food to pop a great scientist earlier (for the academy) OR it will lead to a larger empire that will have a side city be able to pop the great scientist for it.
The banana site will get these multiplying buildings earlier. And the cottages will only be 2-3 turns behind the SIP cottages.
If you played both games out to T200 Yes the capital in SIP plan will eventually have total higher commerce output that is higher than the capital in the banana plan, but this is only the capital. The banana plan will have a bigger and stronger empire that will contribute to victory more than SIP will.
I know english its not my strong point, but if you setle on banana and discover a beter city site, you want city to go there, so your plan to get cotages on the flood plains lefted outside, t and match the resea=rch from setling in place will be null.
About food surplus you wrong, dont get more food setling on banana if you want at least to 3 cotages at capitol. And banana can be farmed if there are workers turns to spare and will gave just 1 food less than deer , wich will request a tech (7 turns) to get improved.And more there is just a riverside grass to cottage if setlle on bananas if not you need other work unapeling just grass cottages or riverside plains wich will ate food.
And i realy dont need 200 turns to see wich its better, at tunr 90 setling in place will be way stronger than on bananas, and if we get 2-3 happines resources even faster.
Okay, but if we settle on bananas and think commerce is critical to our victory condition then we can make the decision to settle a 2nd city that will improve our commerce the most. If it truly is a better settling location, then eventually it will contribute more to our victory than the settling decision I made based on limited map knowledge.
the early food surplus in the banana capital is clearly better.
In the SIP capital (2 for center tile, 6 from corn, 4 from farmed banana)
at pop 2 working corn, farmed banana it has a food surplus of 8
at pop 3 working corn, farmed banana, cottaged FP it has a food surplus of 9
at pop 4 working corn, farmed banana, 2 cottaged FP it has a food surplus of 10
at pop 5 working corn, farmed banana, 3 cottaged FP it has a food surplus of 11 (and might have issues)
In banana capital (3 for center tile, 6 from corn, 5 from deer)
at pop 2 working corn, deer it has a food surplus of 10
at pop 3 working corn, deer, cottaged FP is has a food surplus of 11
at pop 4 working corn, deer, 2 cottaged FP is has a food surplus of 12
at pop 5 working corn, deer, 2 cottaged FP, cottaged river grass tile is has a food surplus of 12
If early commerce is critical then the banana capital can work riverside plains cottages and still have about the same food surplus as the SIP capital because 1) it does have more food surplus 2) it has fewer potential issues
If early commerce isn't critical then the banana capital can work non-river grass cottages and grow even faster than the SIP capital.
No problem with health as we will have corn and deer conected.If you made this math just for size 5 , yuo might right but if we will have 2 hapines resource can grow to size 7 and i will still have 1 flood plain to work,aand another 2 riverside gras remain, i could even gave up on the working banana and get working like 6 cotages and still have a very good food surplus.With the resource food i seen we can grow to size 8 without having any problem and i wish that to happen before turn 90.
Usualy i play to get capitol at size 13-14 by 1 ad and this capitol realy looks like very good for burocracy, of course if capitol has potential to play this way if we move it nope.
I'm not saying that the SIP place capital is a bad one, I'm saying the banana capital is better. The SIP in place capital will have health issues at some point. We will have to plan to avoid the health issues in the capital.
The banana capital has 2 more health than the SIP capital. It benefits from having more than 1 forest in its BFC and it doesn't have the Flood Plain This means we have more flexibility with when we hook up the health resources. More worker freedom is a good thing.
Since the ruleset discussion seems to be winding down I think we need to return to thinking about what we plan to do "in game" once the game begins. It would be good for us to have an initial strategy such as "spam cottages" or "Stonehenge" or "BW and then chop axes for a rush." (note those are just a few examples of many possibilities)
One thing i would add is that with tech trading off we need to be constantly aware of our research. So things like an oracle gambit, etc should probably be discussed.
I'm not in favour of an early rush, though chopping axes might prove useful lest we run into Spanish Apolyton. My preference would be to go worker techs -> early religion while spamming cottages.
All hail to Mistfit for the avatar.
And I can't wait for this game to start! (hey, now , it's not an off-topic post ;-) )
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