Starvation – What are the Implications?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by MosheLevi, Apr 22, 2009.

  1. MosheLevi

    MosheLevi Prince

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    I am very much aware that a city needs to produce more food than what it consumes in order to grow.

    However, there are times that a city is stagnant or has a very slow growth and there is not much we can do about it at that moment.
    So in this situations I sometimes switch from city farms to the workshops on order to increase the number of hammers.
    The city then goes into starvation, so I am wondering if there any additional implications for being in starvation other than the none growth aspect.

    If a city is not growing then why not maximize its hammer production if starvation has no other implications.

    So the question again is: is there any other implications (other than growth) for a city being in starvation?
     
  2. Huaojozu

    Huaojozu Warlord

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    As far as I know, only negative thing that starvation brings is the loss of population. Very rapid, once you empty your reserves, if youre still starving though.
     
  3. Crusher1

    Crusher1 King

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    Minor power rating changes which are too trivial to even think about. Other than that, micro managing your empire the way you are is very smart :)
     
  4. DaveMcW

    DaveMcW Deity

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    The implication is you have been working useless plains farms, and using the population growth to work more useless plains farms. Stop doing that.
     
  5. nbcman

    nbcman King

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    There is a trick when building settlers/workers-you cannot starve while building them. So if you switch from farms (3 :food: or 2 :food: / 1 :hammers: ) to mines (either 4 :hammers: or 1 :food: / 3 :hammers: ) you can build the settler/worker faster without any loss of pop. This is especially useful when expansive or imperialistic when the production bonus to settler/worker only applies to hammers and not food.

    edit: As DaveMcW said above, optimally you should be working higher food tiles and not plains farms which may be slowing pop growth.
     
  6. Crusher1

    Crusher1 King

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    I don't see any mention of this in the OP comments.

    Dave is just being Dave. There is no need to work a higher food tile when you are already at your happy cap or the land your city is founded on lacks the necessary food to grow beyond it's current size. Simply swap the tiles around to become starved but gain valuable production, commerce, or wealth, then swap the tiles back to food when you are about to starve and repeat.

    If you have a lot of food surplus and can support 2 or more unhappy faces then you could grow to that then whip needed buildings - but the OP has eluded to poor food so this wouldn't even be a factor. Even with excess food it would be smart during a REX where you are at zero slider and losing GPT to micro your tiles to build more research, wealth, or commerce to get you to a needed tech. The completion of happiness techs such as Monarchy/Drama would factor into a different equation - something the OP hasnt eluded to.
     
  7. MosheLevi

    MosheLevi Prince

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    Interesting comment, lol.
    I usually build farms on tiles that produce the highest food, but sometimes not many of those are around.

    This problem occurs occasionally.
    At the beginning the city grows fast, but then when it become larger it starting to consume a lot of food.
    Is it because it grows too fast?

    In any case, at what point do I start losing population (when starved)?
    How can I monitor that?
     
  8. henrebotha

    henrebotha proud Fender owner

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    A city consumes extra food per citizen. I'm not sure if it varies with game speed, but on Normal, you need 20 food for pop 2, 22 for pop 3, 24 for pop 4, etc. (Exact numbers may be wrong, but the point is: for every pop point you grow, you need even more food to grow to the next pop point.)
    You starve at a rate of (food consumed - food provided) per turn (assuming a healthy city). Once this loss of food per turn has emptied the food stored (the orange bar in your city screen), you starve.
     
  9. EmperorFool

    EmperorFool Deity

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    If your food rate per turn plus your stored food is less than zero, you lose 1 population point and your food store is set to zero. You don't lose population if your food rate is exactly negative of your food store; it must take your food store below zero.

    One additional point is that you lose only one population point per turn no matter how much you are starving by.

    For example, say you have 20 food stored and are losing food at a rate of 3 per turn. After 6 turns, you'll have 2 food stored. On the seventh turn, your food storage will go to 0 but you will not lose any population. On the eighth turn onward, if you don't raise your net food per turn to zero or greater, you will lose one population point per turn no matter how negative it is.

    Code:
    Turn  Stored  FPT  Pop Change
       1    17     -3  0
       2    14     -3  0
       3    11     -3  0
       4     8     -3  0
       5     5     -3  0
       6     2     -3  0
       7     0     -3  0
       8     0     -3  -1
    
    Above, Stored is the amount of food left in your storage after hitting "End Turn".
     
  10. henrebotha

    henrebotha proud Fender owner

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    Maybe someone should check this in game? I know that at 0 food, you need to have a negative net food and hit "End Turn" for the city to actually shrink... So it seems counter-intuitive that it would work the way your example does. I'm typing this half-naked as I'm getting ready for varsity so can't really do it myself. :p
     
  11. EmperorFool

    EmperorFool Deity

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    Yes, that's exactly how it works. I reworded my example to make it clear that you only lose population (shrink) on the eighth turn once the food store has already reached zero.
     
  12. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    Growing a city very large with corps and farms then switching all the farms to workshops can get you a lot of gpp and production at the same time.

    A city loses one population point when the food would go under 0. It is quite common to starve cities that are not going to grow anymore, but losing that population point is often not best as it means you will have to pay full price to grow back(and if you would do that why grow that extra size in the first place?). Of course for GPP purposes it can often be worth it to starve one population point(or even several) as any amount of negative food will just cause you to lose one population point, so for example a size 20 city can work 20 specialists and still only starve one pop point, then 19 the turn after etc. This can lead to cities generating great people way before they otherwise would(make sure that great person is worth that starvation though) or that you get gpp from cities that otherwise wouldn't produce any.
     
  13. SlipperyJim

    SlipperyJim Prince

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    If a city is starving, then it has a 20% chance per turn of generating a Great Artist from the "Celebrity Charity Concert" random event. But you need the Mass Media tech....

    Seriously, though, the only problem with starving your city is the loss of population. If you micro-manage the tiles to prevent population loss -- by switching back to the farms right before the city would actually shrink -- then it's no big deal at all.
     
  14. vale

    vale Mathematician

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    This is not true. I just checked it because if it was true, it would be highly exploitable by the player.

    If you lose more food in one turn than you had stored, you will lose 1 population and be at 0 food of the prior food level.
     
  15. EmperorFool

    EmperorFool Deity

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    It was mostly true. ;) I've reworded it after testing this myself. Thank you for the correction.

    Yes, this is what I found.
     
  16. Woodreaux

    Woodreaux Prince

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    I could be mistaken here, but I believe a city cannot have "We love Woodreaux Day" if it is starving. I think it must have more :) than :mad:, more :health: than :yuck: and finally cannot be starving.
     

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