State Property - Overpowered?

Is State Property too powerful?

  • Yes, it's too powerful.

    Votes: 12 11.3%
  • No, it's balanced with the other options.

    Votes: 89 84.0%
  • No, it's inferior to other civics.

    Votes: 5 4.7%

  • Total voters
    106

Badtz Maru

King
Joined
Oct 30, 2001
Messages
674
I've noticed that, by the time I have some decent corporations, nearly all of the AI civs have adopted State Property. Free Market is hardly ever used. I think the bonuses of State Property outweigh it's drawbacks - you'd think a civilization with Free Market would have more money than one with State Property, but this is hardly ever the case, and the other benefits of State Property make it the ideal choice most of the time. I find myself only using Free Market if I have a good corporation and pressuring other Civs to change civics so I can spread my corporations there.
 
I voted balanced.

As per usual its very situational.

On a map like a pangaea or something many cities are fairly close and the use of forbidden palace with a few courthouses and distance from palace isn't really a problem - and the loss of funds through not having corportions hurts.

Larger spaced out map its often very useful - it really tends to depend whether you need it - often if at a lower level you've founded a religion and got its main building gold isn't a major issue - or just generally you aren't worried about gold then theres precious little need for it. Yes the 10% increase in work is nice, but aint gonna be a game changer and if you want work just build the mining inc corporation and you're laughing. Also a corporation in the city with bank, market, grocer, wall st, and you'll make so much gold it nullifies the gains made by state property.

The ai uses it a lot as it doesn't make good use of corporations as a general rule, and needs to to significantly boost its cashflow (also often the ai will have silly cities in the middle of nowhere eating up distance maintenance at a horrible rate.

For me personally, I only use it if in significant financial strife at that stage - can often give a temporary boost to gold allowing an increase in research at a critical time and is good for many turns until corporations come into their own - but as a generaly rule the extra gold from trade routes and the use of corporations means that I tend to favour Free Market.
 
I usually don't build very expansive empires, and I've found that, even when I have a relatively compact and contiguous empire and have a Forbidden Palace, I STILL have more money coming in with State Property than under other financial systems. The only time it is not beneficial on the money side is when you have corporations.
 
I play huge maps for domination or conquest wins. It's powerful but why shouldn't it be? I don't see it as a good goal to equalize all things. Anyone can adopt the civic.
 
If you're willing to micromanage, then Free Market with corps is superior. If you want to keep it simple, State Property is the way. That depends a lot more on the map, though. If you have cities in 3 continents, SP is necessary. If you want to build Coal Plants and keep growing, Environmentalism is your friend. If you're huge and either have vassals or overseas possessions, Mercantilism is great.

I've said it before and will repeat: there's nothing overpowered in the game.
Spoiler :
Except for Divine Right.
 
It's not overpowering. It's balanced.

The best improvements for SP are workshops and watermills, and the former requires you to be in caste to see their potential.

Merc/rep, environmentalism with some improvements (since you can really eat the :yuck: with minimal infra requirements), and FM with corps can compete. Your choice is a function of your current tile improvements, intended victory condition, and how far off the win is.

Divine right isn't a joke, it is ridiculous trade bait and I'm starting to feel like I should head there more too.
 
Divine right isn't a joke, it is ridiculous trade bait and I'm starting to feel like I should head there more too.

I know, but it started as a joke because of its amazing powers of unlocking Nationalism, allowing you to build the two best wonders in the game AND founding a religion.
 
I usually don't build very expansive empires, and I've found that, even when I have a relatively compact and contiguous empire and have a Forbidden Palace, I STILL have more money coming in with State Property than under other financial systems. The only time it is not beneficial on the money side is when you have corporations.

That's kind of the point isn't it? The big economy civics by the mid/late game are free market vs. state property, with mercantilism and enviro being highly niche civics, and the big difference between the two is the ability to use corporations. If you have good corps, free market is more powerful with a large empire or small, with small and tightly spaced cities or large highly developed cities. If you don't, State Property is more powerful. I'd say that's balanced. Sure, there are other factors can can favor one or the other, like the distribution of corp resources, and availability and usability of Forbidden Palace and Versailles, but that's what makes the game fun.
 
I usually don't build very expansive empires, and I've found that, even when I have a relatively compact and contiguous empire and have a Forbidden Palace, I STILL have more money coming in with State Property than under other financial systems. The only time it is not beneficial on the money side is when you have corporations.

In regards to "Money coming in."

You have to look at Free Market and State Property in very different calculations. When free market is up, you may have more net commerce, however, at high sliders this means it all goes to research/culture/espionage. Your maintenance costs remain the same and you will have a huge negative number. With SP, you will not necessarily generate more commerce but because of a significantly smaller maintenance cost, you will find that your big red number at 100% is much smaller. However, you need to remember that the commerce you are putting into research/culture/esp is ALSO smaller.

For instance, if I have a small empire that is at 100% and making +5g per turn, I can look at my 100% research and see that I'm pulling down 100 beakers. A larger empire could be making -500g per turn at 100% research but if they are pulling down 2000 beakers, obviously the level of commerce is winning while the cost of maintenance is losing.

In the long term scale of the game, it is often beneficial to have uber-commerce rather than lower maintenance, primarily because you can set your sliders to 0 for a turn to cover 100% later, maximizing returns and optimizing progress (cultural, espionage, or technological) on turns where you ARE paying full maintenance.
 
I know, but it started as a joke because of its amazing powers of unlocking Nationalism, allowing you to build the two best wonders in the game AND founding a religion.

IMO, GLH, apostolic palace, UN, and sometimes pyramids are better wonders than spiral, though it is still very good if you can run religion. Versailles depends entirely on the map.

However, once you get DR 1st the AI tends to sour-grapes it (much like theology and philosophy), so you can hold a monopoly on it for a long time and really abuse it for a ton of medieval techs.

The religion is usually too late to matter but getting it does mean that culture whore on the other side of the world does NOT get it, and the tremendous culture from the extra religious buildings + cathedrals.
 
Shh, don't bring it up! Otherwise Firaxis will nerf it next expansion! ;)

I think SP is overpowered only in certain situations. If you have an enormous colonial or simply a huge continental empire, then you want State Property hands down. But if your empire is more compact (you went for wonders and military as opposed to domestic expansion), then you don't really need SP. It's not a question of State Property being really powerful or anything... it's just an option. It has it's pluses and minuses like any other civic (with the obvious exception of Decentralization.)
 
Another thing is that State Property is most beneficial for civilizations with far flung empires, but that does not reflect the kind of civilizations that ran State Property in real life. If life was to mimic Civ4, the British Empire would have been best served by running State Property, while China would work fine with Free Market and a Forbidden City. Even the USSR, while certainly big, was contiguous and focused most of it's population and production in one region.

If anything, Free Market should reduce distance based maintenance as the economy does not need to be run from a central location.
 
Another thing is that State Property is most beneficial for civilizations with far flung empires, but that does not reflect the kind of civilizations that ran State Property in real life. If life was to mimic Civ4, the British Empire would have been best served by running State Property, while China would work fine with Free Market and a Forbidden City. Even the USSR, while certainly big, was contiguous and focused most of it's population and production in one region.

If anything, Free Market should reduce distance based maintenance as the economy does not need to be run from a central location.

I figure the British Empire is better modeled as the actual Britain civ ruling just the Islands, with a handful of single city bases elsewhere, but a vast array of vassals/colonies around the globe supplying its corps with resources, while corporate branches in the vassals and colonies feed gold back to their corporate HQs. The British East India Company, for example, fits this mold pretty well. So Britain would be incredibly wealthy, while its supercharged corps make its cities powerhouses, but it has limited military production due to its small size and population relative to the other big boys, which matches history pretty well.
 
If anything, Free Market should reduce distance based maintenance as the economy does not need to be run from a central location.

Actually, a Free Market is not CONTROLLED by government and perceptibly only REGULATED by government. As we all know, when regulation fails, there are costs involved. When actors are further away from the centrality of government, the cost of enforcement and "civic maintenance" is bound to be higher. If we still had significant colonial empires, regulating and taxing a colony that is free to trade with its neighbors with limited regulation is alot more expensive than having the remote magistrate have completely control over trading agreements.

State Property, though, should not provide food if we are talking about realism. Since you are creating more government bureacracy and reducing productivity, then technically you should have a decline in productivity, and almost certainly a cultural penalty. However, I am assuming that Civ4 is modeling SP off the Chinese model where labor is primarily agricultural and by volume, things get crackin.
 
Actually, a Free Market is not CONTROLLED by government and perceptibly only REGULATED by government. As we all know, when regulation fails, there are costs involved. When actors are further away from the centrality of government, the cost of enforcement and "civic maintenance" is bound to be higher. If we still had significant colonial empires, regulating and taxing a colony that is free to trade with its neighbors with limited regulation is alot more expensive than having the remote magistrate have completely control over trading agreements.

That doesn't sound like any Economics training I've heard of :).
 
It's not a question of State Property being really powerful or anything... it's just an option. It has it's pluses and minuses like any other civic (with the obvious exception of Decentralization.)

The way you put that caught my attention. None of the default civics are great, of course. But in my opinion, Decentralization is a lot LESS bad compared to Mercantilism (WITHOUT Representation) than Despotism, Barbarism, or Tribalism *compared to* other options in their civic categories. Note: I'm not saying it's good, just less bad than those civics, compared with *their* alternatives. I'm not sure but maybe Decentralization also wouldn't be too much worse than Free Market if you have a small empire, can't get consistent Open Borders and peace with accessible civs, and you don't have your own overseas holdings or vassals. Of course the longer the game goes on, the more you are likely to acquire those things, or enlarge your empire and the populations of your cities (increasing trade :commerce:).

To look just a little more at Merc (which Decentralization might perform closer to than FM even with limitations): you have to go through at least 1 turn of Anarchy unless you are Spiritual, replace all foreign trade routes with domestic ones, and pay Medium upkeep instead of Low. It can take a little while for that to pay off. It probably pays off faster if you have another civic to change at the same time.

Given the strength of the widely-favored strategy of researching the "upper half" of the Medieval/Renaissance tech tree and trading if possible for "lower-half" techs like Banking, I'm glad Decentralization performs as well as it does. (Plus, its decent performance vs. Mercantilism *contributes* to the strength of that strategy. Imagine if Merc were much stronger than it is--might change the cost/benefit balance somewhat...) It does, IMO, end up looking a little odd if you have, say, Representation, Bureaucracy/Nationhood, Slavery or Caste, the religious civic of your choice, and you're still in Decentralization because you don't have Banking. (I know we might not get all of the techs (and/or Mids/Shwedagon Paya) for those civics before Banking on a regular basis, but my point is that it often takes a lot longer to unlock a non-default Economy civic than non-default civics in other categories).

I've left Paganism until now. It's the only Low upkeep religious civic until the "latest" one, Free Religion. Pacifism has no (official) upkeep, but it can take a while to get Philosophy, and really Pacifism's upkeep is what it costs you for your military, so the true cost of the civic scales up with your military. And getting a benefit from any non-default religious civic requires having your state religion (or, of course, any religion in FR, the more the merrier) in every city where you want to benefit (except I just realized, you do get +10% :science: in all cities with FR; still, it comes later than the other religious civics).

Anyway, it makes sense to me to not declare a state religion and remain in Paganism until I decide that the benefits of adopting a religion outweigh the usual diplomatic hit with at least 1 civ, often more.

I didn't intend to write so much. Perhaps by "the obvious exception of Decentralization" you just meant the other Economy civics are better; if so, I would agree. But the other default civics, except Paganism unless and until the time to adopt a religion comes, seem way worse to me.
 
Actually mercantilism can be quite useful if you can't have foreign trade routes, i.e isolated on a continent before Astronomy, or if the ones you can trade with are also in merc.
 
Actually mercantilism can be quite useful if you can't have foreign trade routes, i.e isolated on a continent before Astronomy, or if the ones you can trade with are also in merc.

That is true. I've experienced other civs being in Merc, but I haven't experienced isolation, so far.

One other thing I didn't think to mention earlier is that in order to get useful (non-Citizen :)) specialists, you need either Caste System (and can't run Slavery; though certainly you suffer less if you have the Spiritual trait and can switch back and forth frequently if you want to), or buildings providing specialist slots (Library, Market, Courthouse, and/or Temple being some early ones...and I'm not too fond of Priest specialists myself and prefer Spies later rather than sooner) in all or most of your cities. Not necessarily a big deal, but I have found myself with so-so cities I captured from an AI where I realized I didn't have any spec slots (I had run Caste for a while, then switched out) and constructing one of those buildings would take a while. On one occasion I also had a low-production cottage city that I had built myself that didn't have those buildings (it got started late enough that a Library wasn't a big priority for me there, probably would have been a higher one if I had thought of the spec slots).
 
I think it can be very overpowered, but it's situational. For instance, in the current game I'm playing on the Earth Map, I went from -50 gpt to +150 gpt after switching to SP (along with Free Religion, from Theocracy). In this case, it is massive. But if your empire isn't that big, or if you have Versailles and the Forbidden Palace, it obviously wont make as much difference.

Edit: I play Warlords, so no Corporations.
 
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