[C3C] Statue of Zeus and Knight's Templar viable Wonders?

[livinginaz]

I did a brief match to get back into the game, and I ended up building both the Statue of Zeus and the Knight's Templar, giving me a good pool of units. This was extremely handy, I was able to use AC to rush my enemy on my landmass, quickly decimating him with sheer force without having built any units. Crusaders from KT came in just after that war, and allowed me to continue my campaign onto new lands, albeit at reduced speed.

This got me to thinking, how viable is it to build these wonders frequently? Other than possibly taking away from vital production at specific points, I see little flaw in them. If your unit cap is low, you can just disband them every 5 turns as they come in, without it costing anything I believe. Free units, if you need them they're great if not then just disband or fortify with them for a time. It may also be worthwhile to build them to deny possible enemies from gaining access to them, but I don't know how effectively the AI uses these.

Anyone able to give a bit more info on the viability and/or drawbacks of building these?

 

[vorlon_mi]

Caveat: I play at Regent level, where I need to out-think the AI and not overcome their bonuses. Building Temple of Zeus is great, if you happen to start near ivory. If not, you won't be getting those Ancient Cavalry (AC). I usually *do* try to plan a prebuild for Knights Templar in most games. I have spent the ancient age expanding and filling up the good land available to me. I may or may not have attacked a neighbor with swords/catapults/horses. If I didn't start near iron, I always mount an archer/catapult/horse offensive to get it.

Going into the middle ages, I'm ready for an offensive war to take some territory and/or luxury resources. Having a steady stream of Crusaders is a great asset, along with horses that have been upgraded to knights, and fresh-built knights. I also start a prebuild for Copes in my best science city. I almost always go for Knights Templar instead of Sun Tzu, since it's an optional tech and the AI are always racing for Sun Tzu. I won't lose out on Sun Tzu in a "wonder cascade", as the AI switch from Great Wall / Sun Tzu / Hanging Gardens / Marsallos / whatever else they like to build. It's easier to capture Sun Tzu than build it. With a defense of 3, I can leave a crusader behind as city garrison until a pike or musket arrives from my core. An attack value of 5 is great against AI cities defended by spearmen not yet upgraded to pikes.

By the time I get to the middle ages, I usually have 3-4 decent shield producing cities in my core, so that I can spare one for the KT prebuild. KT doesn't go obsolete until Steam Power; I have taken to naming my Crusaders as they are produced, and it's not unusual for me to get 15-19 Crusaders before it goes obsolete. That seems a good return on my shield investment in building the wonder.

 

[justanick]

If you can build Zeus and maintain a steady supply of the needed ivory, then built it. Statue of Zeus will only produce ancient cavalry while ivory is supplied. Ancient cavalry are arguably the best unit for an army until real cavalry becomes available with military tradition. Knights are better than ancient cavalry, but they are expensive. For 70 shields you get attack 4 and at veteran level 4 HP. AC gives attack 3 and 5 HP at veteran level. So that would be worth 70*(3*5)/(4*4)=65.625 shields. That is much more than their formal 40 shields.

Disbanding ancient cavalry or crusaders would be wasteful. There are many units that are more suited for disbanding. AI will respect you more if you have strong offensive units. Ancient cavalry and crusaders are prime examples for that. Disbanding them becomes sensible only after you have proper cavalry in masses.

Knight's Templar is a tricky wonder. You donnot need resources for it. If you donnot have iron you can still build the wonder and get crusaders. If you donnot have iron that is worth quite a lot and even more so if you donnot have salpeter.

The weakness of the wonder is the timing. Assuming you finish this wonder when you finish Invention and research towards military tradition at 4 turns per tech. Then it will take only 16 turns till proper cavalry will be available. Proper cavalry will render all older offensive units obsolete.

You may still use Crusaders as defenders, as glorified alternatives to Pikes. But Musketmen will be available by then and they are more efficient than Pikes, at least if unit support and the possibility of war weariness matter.

 

[livinginaz]

Ah, I wasn't aware that the Zeus Ancient Cavalry required ivory. Indeed, it might be better to disband some other units, it may be worth it to "prune" your army for weak or outdated units that serve no purpose anymore. I did notice that Cavalry destroys most older units. I waited 15 or so turns after that war before deciding to conquer the Zulu, who I thought were weak. Using my AC and Crusader army, I quickly was able to take some cities with no resistance as had been the case in earlier wars. Turns out he was building a ton of Cavalry, which destroyed my army on both offense and defense, wrecking my invasion.

I think it's best to use these wonders when they are new, then.

 

[md4]

I'd never built either wonder until a recent game that I set to Raging Barbarians, and heavens above did the ancient cavalry prevent some disasterous uprisings across my thinly spread empire at the time.

 

[Aabraxan]

If I have ivory, you can bet I'll try to build the SoZ. KT, not so much. Crusaders are OK, but by the time it becomes available, I'm often ready to beeline cavs, which will leave crusaders behind in a hurry.

 

[grognard]

Don't forget that the Crusaders are semi-engineers. They can build fortifications by themselves. Handy in invasions to have a safe home to fall back on if things go poorly.

 

[Aabraxan]

My defensive wars are pretty rare, so I don't usually think about that.

 

[vmxa]

Vorlon "Caveat: I play at Regent level, where I need to out-think the AI and not overcome their bonuses."

Just so you know, the AI does not get bonus stuff at Regent. That starts at Monarch. Regent the AI gets what the players gets. Below you get stuff and above they get stuff. Of course they have knowledge of the resources at all levels, they do not know the map layout. IOW they have to explore like you, that is why it is often a bad idea to trade maps, if you have land you do not want them to see. They know that oil is on a tile near you, but they do not know the path to it, till they see it.

 

[md4]

Vorlon "Caveat: I play at Regent level, where I need to out-think the AI and not overcome their bonuses."

Just so you know, the AI does not get bonus stuff at Regent. That starts at Monarch. Regent the AI gets what the players gets. Below you get stuff and above they get stuff. Of course they have knowledge of the resources at all levels, they do not know the map layout. IOW they have to explore like you, that is why it is often a bad idea to trade maps, if you have land you do not want them to see. They know that oil is on a tile near you, but they do not know the path to it, till they see it.

Can you—or somebody—elaborate on this? I had always heard that the AI knew where even the hidden resources were, but had assumed they had full map knowledge in order to achieve this. Do they still need to incrementally reveal the map to allow the pathfinding to work correctly?

 

[Aabraxan]

^^^I think that's correct, but don't know enough to really elaborate for you. I'm thinking it's "they know oil will be on tile X, Y, but don't know what the tiles between them and X,Y are."

 

[Buttercup]

I think someone here once told me that the AI knows the map as well, hence they always trade maps for maximum profit as there's no point not to. I'm not sure if they're correct or not as I never took the advice & even to this day still don't sell many maps if any, just to slow the AI's island munching down a turn or two.

Statue of Zeus - if you have Ivory, no reason not to, but be sure to build a Barracks there as well! Awesome units.

Templar - Not so much. It's ironic that it's on the same tech that gives you Knights. If you have a gang of Knights then the Crusaders are never going to be able to keep up. They're much more of a fun optional thing barring really obscure specific scenarios. I usually build it just to stop the AI building it. The resulting Crusaders I get, which wont be many usually as I usually quickly bee-line for Railroads, I keep as Capital City ceremonial defenders, useful for looking nice and deterring the AI from landing next to my capital and, if they do, are adequate at repelling pretty much any kind of invasionary boat load.

If you could upgrade them later in the game they'd be more useful for sure. As it is they're just one of the game's prettiest units with one of the best sound effect and animation sets.

 

[Fergei]

^^^I think that's correct, but don't know enough to really elaborate for you. I'm thinking it's "they know oil will be on tile X, Y, but don't know what the tiles between them and X,Y are."

I don't know either, but I'd agree there is no way that the AI knows the entire map. If you play with reveal map, the AI disbands its scouts immediately. If they knew the entire map from the outset I'd assume they would have to also disband their scouts. They would probably also never threaten you for your maps (which they do). If I was to make a blind guess I'd say that they only know a resource exists on a square when they have exposed the square in question. I don't think they know that if they travel into the void, they'll find a resource at a certain square. If they did I'd imagine their scouting units would move in much more direct routes.

I may be blind, but I don't really notice the AI 'cheating' in this way. What I do notice is them having a city right next to a resource like iron and taking an absolute age to hook it, or even ignoring it completely. So I think any cheating around resources is, on balance, offset by the AI's stupidity.

 

[vorlon_mi]

Vorlon "Caveat: I play at Regent level, where I need to out-think the AI and not overcome their bonuses."

Just so you know, the AI does not get bonus stuff at Regent. That starts at Monarch. Regent the AI gets what the players gets. Below you get stuff and above they get stuff. .

Yes, exactly. I play well enough to not need the extra stuff I would get below Regent. At higher levels, where they get stuff, I would have to work harder -- like micromanaging the tiles citizens work, or carefully timing my builds with growth -- to beat them. While I probably could beat Monarch, it would be less fun for me, for my approach to the game.

 

[vmxa]

For sure, doing what is fun for you. I like being in a big hole and seeing how long it takes to come back. Though an occasional stomp is not a bad thing.

 

[livinginaz]

For sure, doing what is fun for you. I like being in a big hole and seeing how long it takes to come back. Though an occasional stomp is not a bad thing.

Definitely. Personally, depending on my mood I'll play differently. Sometimes it's fun to just dominate matches, sometimes it's fun to contend with other Civs, and sometimes it's fun to lag behind and try to catch yourself up. I try to play strategically in most cases though, rarely conquering an entire Civ, usually just their vital cities and/or to weaken them.