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Status on AI work?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Bringa, Feb 4, 2009.

  1. Bringa

    Bringa King

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2006
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    677
    Hey,

    I used to play a lot of FFH multiplayer. At some point it became obvious that our skills had reached the point where on any difficulty level the AI either steamrolled us within the first hour or we would slowly but surely win the game. So we started playing against each other and noticed just how imbalanced and potentially unbalancable FFH was for competitive multiplayer (I believe that there is a complexity threshold beyond which effective balance is not attainable; I also believe that FFH is several light hours beyond that threshold). So we switched over to BtS itself and have been having lots of fun playing small, fast, competitive games.

    Now the other day my friend felt a little under the weather and we decided to have a look at FFH again after some time of absence. We decided to go for a large map, play as a team, and play against some four enemy AI teams at Monarch. Surely this wouldn't exactly challenge us, but we might have a fun game before it becomes obvious that we've won.

    He played Khazad, me Kuriotates. We never got around to settling a second city, losing badly to the barbs at first. My Baldur became whither and poisoned from some unique lizardman assassin and was useless until he hit March. Generally we had the impression that we had been doing spectacularly badly and that the AI might even have a chance to defeat us this time around. I mean it was round 150 or so in an epic game and we both only had one city and had just barely managed to spread our religion from me to him.

    So Varn Gossam, who is slightly above us, points-wise, settles a city right by my border, threatening to take away the only Bronze we had between us (I would trade it to my friend from time to time so he could upgrade his units). I thought, oh well, might as well declare war and go for it. I had a stack of maybe 7 or 8 swordmen and my Bambur, just recently unpoisoned but still whithered. The city by my border had... one warrior and one lightbringer. Okay... maybe he forgot to move units. I raze that city and the next (2 warriors) and come to his capital... where I see one warrior and one lightbringer.

    Seriously, what the hell? I don't remember the AI being anywhere near this bad.

    I'm wondering what kind of priority AI work is right now in FFH. Monarch was the kind of difficulty where before we sometimes had to try a little harder during early game not to be bulldozed by bronze working units. This time, ages after we casually hit bronze working, neither does the AI have any BW units nor have they built more than 1-2 units per city. Essentially they surrendered.

    For now we're putting FFH aside again, but we used to love the mod so much I'm sure we'll check back eventually.
     
  2. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

    Joined:
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    My experience is it takes about 8 CPU opponents at Emperor for 2 of them to become credible threats that aren't pushovers. You were just unlucky. I imagine you also weren't playing Aggressive AI, and certainly weren't using the No Building/Level requirements.
     
  3. Rystic

    Rystic Turtle Wizard

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    Did you do an Erebus map?
     
  4. Monkeyfinger

    Monkeyfinger Deity

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    I wish people would stop pretending these do anything. They were meant to solve problems which these days are only caused by poor teching, and thus which they can't help fix.
     
  5. Deon

    Deon Lt. of Mordor

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    I've also noticed that in multiplayer when I played with 3-4 friends we were just walking around and suddenly "hey, screw it" killed one or two AI nations in a few turns. Moreover they tried to settle new cities and defend them with scouts when there was a war going on.

    It tends to be different in single player, and I definitely can't see the reason. The same monarch, the same game options, and huge stacks of 6-15 hunters and axemen per city instead of warriors and scouts in MP. Can someone explain it please?

    P.S. I've also noticed that I started to play FFH more for fun and less for a challenge. When you start to understand various FFH nations' tricks and rolls it becomes a game "how to fool AI", not "how to survive", even of Deity if you play with specific civs which have preferrable "winning" techniques like Sidar or Balseraph or Calabim etc.
     
  6. Demian.McLellan

    Demian.McLellan Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2009
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    on multiplayer when selecting difficulty for AI, you need to reverse your choice. If you choose Monarch or something difficult you will be imposing restrictions and limitations on that AI. if you choose one of the noob difficulties they will get bonuses instead (like free settlers, workers...). There is a discussion about the effects of the different difficulty settings somewhere on the net, google will find it (it did for me a few months ago). I wish it wasn't so counterintuitive. My friend and I got walloped by the ai when we set them to too easy a difficulty, so I know they can be a challenge, and the stupid choices your ai is making really suggests the game is castrating them, so, try making them easier.
     
  7. PotatoOverdose

    PotatoOverdose Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
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    352
    Not having to wait for/decide to build a building means the AI can crank out higher level units faster, which when coupled with various production bonuses they recieve means they are able to field stacks of advanced units (that they would be able to field normally) earlier.

    No level requirements is still about the only way the AI will get tier 2 arcane units. They are usually only used by Amurites and Sheaim, but they do occasionally toss a fireball.

    The options don't do as much as before, true, but they do do quite a bit in certain situations (like when the AI tries to rush the player) which can occasionally mean the difference between an easy game and a game where you hold on for dear life. Situational, but its is there nonetheless.
     
  8. Err0l

    Err0l Chieftain

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    Yeah, but every time I enable no level requirements the AI spams Satyrs...
     
  9. Bringa

    Bringa King

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    You seem to be confused about this a little, unless there's a major bug here that no one knows about. Setting a low difficulty level on yourself DEPRIVES the AI of bonuses (and gives you, the player, bonuses). I don't remember right now if you *can* even set difficulty levels for the AI players, but I don't think you can. At any rate, they wouldn't have any effect whatsoever. So setting a high player difficulty (say emperor or higher) gives the AI bonuses.

    For instance, on Immortal:

    Code:
    			<iAIStartingUnitMultiplier>0</iAIStartingUnitMultiplier>
    			<iAIStartingDefenseUnits>3</iAIStartingDefenseUnits>
    			<iAIStartingWorkerUnits>1</iAIStartingWorkerUnits>
    			<iAIStartingExploreUnits>1</iAIStartingExploreUnits>
    			<iBarbarianDefenders>4</iBarbarianDefenders>
    			<iAIDeclareWarProb>100</iAIDeclareWarProb>
    			<iAIWorkRateModifier>75</iAIWorkRateModifier>
    			<iAIGrowthPercent>85</iAIGrowthPercent>
    			<iAITrainPercent>80</iAITrainPercent>
    
    (From CIV4HandicapInfo.xml)

    This means for instance that the AI only needs 75% of the time you need to build an improvement, and only 85% of the food you need to grow another city level, and only 80% of the production you need to build a unit, etc.

    [edit] Hah! You guys managed to completely derail this. At any rate, the main point of my thread was to ask what is going on with AI work in FFH right now because the AI is considerably worse in this mod than it is in the main mod. I get my ass handed to me in BtS on Prince if I don't bring my A-game, and in FFH even playing a really sub-standard game, I walked all over a monarch AI accidentally.

    If this matters for any reason, the settings we used (off the top of my head) were:

    Inland Sea map
    No tech trading
    No building requirements for AI (remembering vaguely that this was supposed to improve the AI's performance--it surely didn't)
    All victories enabled
    Normal barbs, normal ai aggressiveness
    Large map, one civ more than default
    Four enemy AI teams: one random good leaders, one random neutral leaders, two random evil leaders
     
  10. Yashkaf

    Yashkaf King of my Castle

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    I don't know what's the status on the AI, but you do know that there are things beyond monarch, right? The general recommendation is 2 levels above your BtS difficulty. I jumped from monarch/emperor on BtS to immortal/deity in FfH 2 and it was alright. There is a problem with the huge bonuses the AI gets to start with on Deity (extra settler) which basically force you into cheating/warrior rush to survive the first 200 turns. Thankfully, the team found the perfect solution: increading difficulty. I usually play on increasing difficulty up from monarch or emperor to start, which gives me a chance to do something in the early game (like found a religion) but still gives the AI the deity percentage bonuses it needs to stay competitive after 150 turns.
     
  11. Bringa

    Bringa King

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    Back when me and my friend were playing a lot of FFH vs the AI we could do deity, but it's just like you say: play insanely hard for the first 100 rounds or so, and if you survive that it's automatic win. This isn't fun. You never get to use any of the fun late game units against the AI in situations where it MATTERS. If I want to fight the AI with Axemen and catapults I can go play BtS as well.
     
  12. Asthix

    Asthix Prognosticator

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    Bringa:

    IMO No AI minimum levels will bring more of what you're looking for. It's a necessary option if you want the AI to actually use goodies against you in mutiplayer.
     
  13. Demian.McLellan

    Demian.McLellan Chieftain

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    the last time i played a multiplayer game we setup the difficulty for each ai seperately. maybe it doesn't work this way in FFH, but I know if you set the ai at diety your team will win by turn 200.
     
  14. Bringa

    Bringa King

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    I'd need a confirmation from someone who knows the code better than me, but from my understanding of the SDK, the difficulty level you set for the AI has no effect whatsoever. Confirmation anyone?
     
  15. Demian.McLellan

    Demian.McLellan Chieftain

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  16. Kael

    Kael Deity

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    Im pretty sure it works.
     
  17. Neomega

    Neomega Deity

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    Right. You made the AI have all the deity penalties, while you guys enjoyed the advantages of only playing at noble.
     
  18. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    It has an effect. There's a reason why in Earth1000AD scenario England's difficulty is Chieftain and Arabia's difficulty is Deity.
     
  19. Mesix

    Mesix One of Porg

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    So if the player is set for Diety and the AI is set for Settler then the AI will get all the benefits of both?

    Does the adjustable difficulty settings option in FfH give the lower ranked AI players easier difficulty bonuses? If not, that may make an interesting update in a patch.
     
  20. Demian.McLellan

    Demian.McLellan Chieftain

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    in multiplayer, with the possible exception of some diplomacy modifiers, the difficulty settings for each ai/player only affect that player.
     

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