Stave Church Doesn't Fit Norway

[Draehl]

Even forgetting for a moment that Norway needs broader buffs the Stave Church does not meaningfully fit into the grand scheme of their civilization. I'm certainly no expert but the three things that jump out at me about Norway are the Viking raids/exploration(firmly covered by existing bonuses), expert traders/fishermen, and on the religious front specifically the Norse Pantheon. The bonuses should be shifted away from faith and organized religion directly and more towards pantheon bonuses and maritime economic pursuits.

Some broad conceptual suggestions:

• Remove the Stave Church completely.
• Give Norway a pantheon specific trait such as choosing two pantheon bonuses or getting a free pantheon at the start of the game, etc.
• Give them a Lighthouse replacement, baking in the +1 sea resource production from Stave Church and a bonus to trade routes involving that city. Something like +food for internal trade routes with that city as the destination (ie fish being sent inland) and a large +gold/science bonus specifically for your maritime international trade routes originating from that city.
• Toss in un-pillagable maritime trade routes for a kicker if balance appropriate.

IMO something broadly along these lines would help Norway power-wise as well as conceptually point them in a significantly more appropriate direction. Thoughts/criticism?

 

[liv]

It only fits because they are great (almost) unique buildings and still many are wonderfully preserved. But I agree that throwing faith into Norway just take away from the focus the civ seems to have. Maybe they could get automatically more yield from improving sea resources instead. I do not like a lighthouse special building only because although there are lighthouses in Norway I would not say they have any special significance for them and the first ones come very late historically speaking (not that there are not civs with that kind of a setup)

 

[isau]

I think the Stave Church should replace a City Center building instead of the Temple and it would be fine. Or else replace the Temple but still be buildable in the City Center.

Second option would be for it be a unique improvement.

 

[Phrozen]

Buildings in general should be ultra-powerful just due to the resources needed to invest in them and they really aren't spammable. Some of them are, like the Film Studio, and some of them are not like Stave Church. Ideally, unique improvements should be weak but somewhat spammable, unique districts should be better but still just a bit of an advantage over a regular district, and unique buildings should be really powerful.

 

[Zaarin]

You realize, of course, that Norway has been Christian since the 12th century and that Harald himself was Catholic (and that his in-game lines invoking Odin and Valhalla are historical nonsense). That being said, I agree that giving religious bonuses to Norway is thematically a little strange--though I'm not quickly thinking of a good UI for Norway. Maybe the Stave Church could have been saved for the Swedes, who were a Lutheran superpower in the 18th century.

 

[The googles do nothing]

As an experiment I've tried a strategy playing as Norway to try and leverage the Stave Church I will build a Holy Site first - or at lease place one - because I can make it the first tech I research and therefore should be the cheap and have a minimal opportunity cost. Per my understanding of the district discount system - at least my understanding of it - I should get the next district at a discount. I then researched the Celestial Navigation tech next and was able to build a Harbor for 39 hammers. (or was it 37? dang memory. One of those two). I never really found a reason to build a second holy site and while the extra 2 production I gained from the Stave Church was nice it didn't change the game much.

My suggestion for the Stave Church would be that any Melee unit trained in the city gets "+4 bezerker rage". Like America's bonus but not continent related. Then just make the Bezerker a Swordsman replacement with no combat bonus but keep the movement bonus.

 

[Phrozen]

You realize, of course, that Norway has been Christian since the 12th century and that Harald himself was Catholic (and that his in-game lines invoking Odin and Valhalla are historical nonsense). That being said, I agree that giving religious bonuses to Norway is thematically a little strange--though I'm not quickly thinking of a good UI for Norway. Maybe the Stave Church could have been saved for the Swedes, who were a Lutheran superpower in the 18th century.

Perhaps a Vé as a shrine replacement would be better as it was quite common in place names all over Nordic lands, except Iceland for some reason.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

My shekel's worth...
The 'classic' Viking cultures of approximately the 8th to 11th centuries CE had one overwhelming characteristic: water-bourne mobility that could be used to either trade, raid, or conquer and settle. 'Vikings' wound up in control of Normandy in France, founded the Rus culture that dominated several city states in Russia (especially, Kiev) provided mercenaries to Byzantium and Cordoba among others, and founded most of the coastal cities in modern Ireland. All that in addition to the usual picture of Frothing Looters.
The Scandinavian combat forces were composed of Jarls ('Earl') at the top, their Hirdmen or professional retainers, and the Bondir or peasant levies. The Jarls and Hirdmen might be primarily swordsmen with armor, but the bulk of the force, as elsewhere in Europe at the time, were unarmored spearmen with a wooden shield. Berserkers were a tiny fraction of a percent of the men who suffered from 'Pre-Traumatic Brain Injury'. The chance of any 'Bear shirter' surviving the experience was very small and they certainly were not among the leadership of any Viking host or band.

So much for historical reality.

In game terms, I agree with Zaarin, in that the Stave Church as a Christian structure is better suited to a Swedish Civilization focusing on Sweden's "Great Power Days' of the 17th-early 18th centuries CE.

There was a neat mechanism in a Viking Mod Civ in Civ V: the 'Berserker' (which I would rename the Jarl's Band or Hirdsmen) was a Long Boat which could travel over the open ocean a little earlier than other ships (very similar to the Long Boat in the Civ VI game now) BUT it turned into a Swordsman-like Unit when it reached land. Thus, in one neat mechanism it showed the Viking mobility and their ability to suddenly descend on a coast, pillage, loot, attack, possibly conquer, and get away. Ship's crews = Army, just as in the actual Viking Leidang, or ship levy. I would make them use the Melee Promotions, because, frankly, the Vikings' version of a Sea Battle was really just a land battle with an added chance (certainty!) of drowning.

To show the Trade emphasis for the Norwegian/Viking Civ, and especially their ability to penetrate deep into the continent by rivers, I'd allow them to trace Trade Routes x 2 normal distance along rivers or the sea, and automatically establish a Trading Post in any city the trade route passed through.

For a UI, how about an Encampment-replacement, the Borg (which simply means 'Fort', not that Resistance Is Futile).Each of these is automatically fortified when built, and generates one Long Boat/Hirdsman when completed, and further units built in them automatically get one Promotion. These would represent the great armed camps built at Jomsborg, Aggersborg, Trelleborg, Odense, and other places in Scandinavia as bases for, among other things, Svein's invasion of England.

And IF anyone wants to give 'Vikings' a Religious component, it almost has to be Pagan Scandinavian, so should be related to Thor's Hammer symbolism or Judgement Stones and Things rather than 'churches' of any kind. Another possibility would be to involve the Sagas as a Cultural Component, but those might better be saved for an Icelandic Civ - see Sukritact's Mod for Civ VI, which is very, very nicely done.

And please, please, please, No *&#$%^@ Horned Helmets! There are so much more appropriate and distinctive Scandinavian Pagan/early Christian art motifs to use...

 

[Zaarin]

Perhaps a Vé as a shrine replacement would be better as it was quite common in place names all over Nordic lands, except Iceland for some reason.

I'm not sure that's better insofar as I can't see anything about the vé that's distinctive from the shrines of other European pagans.

Another possibility would be to involve the Sagas as a Cultural Component, but those might better be saved for an Icelandic Civ

Snorri Sturluson for Great Writer, please.

 

[acluewithout]

I think the Stave Church is cool as a concept, but it just doesn't work as executed. It would be better as a tile improvement (I guess a bit like Spain's Missionary).

 

[Phrozen]

My shekel's worth...
The 'classic' Viking cultures of approximately the 8th to 11th centuries CE had one overwhelming characteristic: water-bourne mobility that could be used to either trade, raid, or conquer and settle. 'Vikings' wound up in control of Normandy in France, founded the Rus culture that dominated several city states in Russia (especially, Kiev) provided mercenaries to Byzantium and Cordoba among others, and founded most of the coastal cities in modern Ireland. All that in addition to the usual picture of Frothing Looters.
The Scandinavian combat forces were composed of Jarls ('Earl') at the top, their Hirdmen or professional retainers, and the Bondir or peasant levies. The Jarls and Hirdmen might be primarily swordsmen with armor, but the bulk of the force, as elsewhere in Europe at the time, were unarmored spearmen with a wooden shield. Berserkers were a tiny fraction of a percent of the men who suffered from 'Pre-Traumatic Brain Injury'. The chance of any 'Bear shirter' surviving the experience was very small and they certainly were not among the leadership of any Viking host or band.

Except as far as I remember in the sagas a berserker,as that is what the sagas say the person in question is, is never really conflated with battle madness. Those with battle madness are shown sometimes to be superhuman and other times dispatched rather easily, ie one event where a warrior was biting his shield at the beginning of a duel and his opponent simply kicked the bottom of the shield and broke the guys jaw. Berserker's were probably more akin to champion with the bear shirt, something that would be rather rare and valuable as hunting bear would be a somewhat dangerous proposition, being a symbol of their position. A skilled combatant yes, but not one that you had groups of.

 

[Zaarin]

Except as far as I remember in the sagas a berserker,as that is what the sagas say the person in question is, is never really conflated with battle madness. Those with battle madness are shown sometimes to be superhuman and other times dispatched rather easily, ie one event where a warrior was biting his shield at the beginning of a duel and his opponent simply kicked the bottom of the shield and broke the guys jaw. Berserker's were probably more akin to champion with the bear shirt, something that would be rather rare and valuable as hunting bear would be a somewhat dangerous proposition, being a symbol of their position. A skilled combatant yes, but not one that you had groups of.

Outside of the eddas, though, legitimate references to berserkers are very rare, and basing them on the eddas is sort of like giving Greece demigods as a UU. I agree with Boris: jarls would make a better UU for Norway.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Of course, one on-going problem with the Civ UUs is that they keep picking a very tiny fraction of an army in a given period to become the entire army in the game.
Cases in point in Civ VI are many:
Garde Imperiale for France, which from the graphics represents the Grenadiers a'Pied of the Old Guard of the French Empire: 4 battalions out of an army which numbered over 500 battalions at its peak!
Hypaspists for Macedonian Melee troops, a group which was never more than 3000 strong compared to the Pezhetairoi, the pike phalanx of up to 30,000 men who formed the bulk of the army's infantry.
Immortals for Persia, a force of at most 10,000 men out of an army that regularly put over 100,000 onto a single battlefield.

Like Berserkers, if most of the UUs are going to be used, they should be In Addition To rather than Instead Of the 'normal' troops for the time and place. As stated earlier, the bulk of any Scandinavian Army was Bondir, spearmen with a wooden shield and maybe a metal hemet, with the better-armed and armored Jarls and their Hirdsmen professionals making up at best 10% of the total.

 

[Patine]

Even forgetting for a moment that Norway needs broader buffs the Stave Church does not meaningfully fit into the grand scheme of their civilization. I'm certainly no expert but the three things that jump out at me about Norway are the Viking raids/exploration(firmly covered by existing bonuses), expert traders/fishermen, and on the religious front specifically the Norse Pantheon. The bonuses should be shifted away from faith and organized religion directly and more towards pantheon bonuses and maritime economic pursuits.

Some broad conceptual suggestions:

• Remove the Stave Church completely.
• Give Norway a pantheon specific trait such as choosing two pantheon bonuses or getting a free pantheon at the start of the game, etc.
• Give them a Lighthouse replacement, baking in the +1 sea resource production from Stave Church and a bonus to trade routes involving that city. Something like +food for internal trade routes with that city as the destination (ie fish being sent inland) and a large +gold/science bonus specifically for your maritime international trade routes originating from that city.
• Toss in un-pillagable maritime trade routes for a kicker if balance appropriate.

IMO something broadly along these lines would help Norway power-wise as well as conceptually point them in a significantly more appropriate direction. Thoughts/criticism?

The Norse Pantheon and Religion, while beloved of many symbolically and thematically in modern times, including the likes of Stan Lee, J.R.R. Tolkien, and Joseph Goebbels, was historically a "weak" religion in terms of it's relsilience and social grip, given it had far less importance in day-to-day life of the Norse people than most religions in Europe, be they polytheist or monotheist, and the Norse were historically far easier to convert to Christianity, on average, than most other pagan cultures in old Europe. Also, it was a grim and fatalistic religion, and few Norse people really thought or were convinced they had earned Valhalla given the high bar for entry set by the eddas of the skalds.

 

[liv]

The Norse Pantheon and Religion, while beloved of many symbolically and thematically in modern times, including the likes of Stan Lee, J.R.R. Tolkien, and Joseph Goebbels, was historically a "weak" religion in terms of it's relsilience and social grip, given it had far less importance in day-to-day life of the Norse people than most religions in Europe, be they polytheist or monotheist, and the Norse were historically far easier to convert to Christianity, on average, than most other pagan cultures in old Europe. Also, it was a grim and fatalistic religion, and few Norse people really thought or were convinced they had earned Valhalla given the high bar for entry set by the eddas of the skalds.

What is this based on? Do we not worship the tree of life (yggdrasil) every christmas?
I would say it is the other way around. It was very strong and never totally wiped out. It is one of the most recognizable beliefs around for a reason. Its logic was sound (or as sound as any religion)

 

[Zaarin]

Like Berserkers, if most of the UUs are going to be used, they should be In Addition To rather than Instead Of the 'normal' troops for the time and place. As stated earlier, the bulk of any Scandinavian Army was Bondir, spearmen with a wooden shield and maybe a metal hemet, with the better-armed and armored Jarls and their Hirdsmen professionals making up at best 10% of the total.

I don't have a problem with selecting iconic units that weren't really fielded in force. Maybe the solution is, as you say, make them non-replacing and make them expensive but powerful?

The Norse Pantheon and Religion, while beloved of many symbolically and thematically in modern times, including the likes of Stan Lee, J.R.R. Tolkien, and Joseph Goebbels, was historically a "weak" religion in terms of it's relsilience and social grip, given it had far less importance in day-to-day life of the Norse people than most religions in Europe, be they polytheist or monotheist, and the Norse were historically far easier to convert to Christianity, on average, than most other pagan cultures in old Europe. Also, it was a grim and fatalistic religion, and few Norse people really thought or were convinced they had earned Valhalla given the high bar for entry set by the eddas of the skalds.

I'm not sure what you're basing this argument on. The Norse were the next-to-last group in Europe to be Christianized (the Balts were the last), and fatalism and Christianity are hardly strangers (see: Calvinism). While priests and rituals don't seem to have been a big thing for the Norse (they existed, but weren't all that elaborate) folk religion seems to have been quite strong among the Scandinavians.

What is this based on? Do we not worship the tree of life (yggdrasil) every christmas?
I would say it is the other way around. It was very strong and never totally wiped out. It is one of the most recognizable beliefs around for a reason. Its logic was sound (or as sound as any religion)

Sorry, but Christmas trees are older than the Christianization of Scandinavia, and the Tree of Life is a very common mythological element on both sides of the Mediterranean (hint: there was one in Eden--but Christmas trees trace back to German and Anglo-Saxon traditions, not Scandinavian). And no, no one worships their Christmas tree, unless maybe they're a Neopagan. Some pagan names and traditions survived in Scandinavia, it's true, but that could just as easily be attributed to the late date of Norse Christianization.

If it seems like I'm disagreeing with both of you...that's because I am. On the one hand, there's nothing to suggest that the Norse were less religious than other Europeans simply because their religion was less ritualistic; on the contrary, religion seems to have pervaded everyday live in Scandinavia. On the other hand, like most of Europe, Christianization in Scandinavia seems to have been quite thorough: it adopted local customs (as Christianity was never averse to doing until the Age of Imperialism, and I strongly criticize the missionaries of the 19th century for making Christianity a "white man's religion"--there's no reason you can't worship God as well with a stomp dance as with a hymn--but I digress), but I don't see much evidence of pagan survival in Scandinavia even comparable with the early periods of Christianization of the Anglo-Saxons when the line between "pagan" and "Christian" was nebulous (hence scholars still arguing whether Beowulf is a Christian work by a Christian author, a Christianized pagan work, a piece of historical fiction by a Christian, or a purely pagan work under the influence of Christianity).

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I don't have a problem with selecting iconic units that weren't really fielded in force. Maybe the solution is, as you say, make them non-replacing and make them expensive but powerful?

Exactly. That would give the game the 'iconic' units and graphics without the idiotic expansion of very rare groups into mass armies. It would also open up the possibility of having some 'iconic units' like Berserkers be Support Units - stacked with an 'ordinary' unit of spearmen-Bondir they would multiply the unit's factors or diminish the enemy factors (Fear of the Frothing Nutter) but, in keeping with the Berserker Myth, there would be a possibility of losing the Berserker in any combat due to their near-suicidal tactics. The best of all possible Game worlds, to me, is having the iconic historical units accurately represented in their effects and importance, and that has to include more options than simply replacing an 'ordinary' unit with a rare one.

I'm not sure what you're basing this argument on. The Norse were the next-to-last group in Europe to be Christianized (the Balts were the last), and fatalism and Christianity are hardly strangers (see: Calvinism). While priests and rituals don't seem to have been a big thing for the Norse (they existed, but weren't all that elaborate) folk religion seems to have been quite strong among the Scandinavians.

Franz G. Bengtssen, a Swedish historian who also wrote the best single book about Vikings ever (Red Orm or The Long Ships, it's been reprinted numerous times under both titles) and who did a lovely job of getting Inside The Head and Thought Process of the 'average' Scandinavian of 1000 AD, had an interesting take: Scandinavia was marginal land, which was one reason men took to the sea to earn a living 'plowing the Awk's meadow'. It also meant that a hard-headed pragmatism permeated everything they did and thought: the enemy was too strong to raid, you traded. The King said join the new religion or swallow a snake, you joined. You didn't like the king, you moved to Iceland and ignored him (tellingly, Iceland adopted Christianity by popular vote with a provision for 'phasing out' the old religion over a generation and with virtually none of the persecution and violence that too often accompanied changes in religion in the rest of the world).
The evidence for daily religious observance of Scandinavian paganism is scanty, because there are very few pagan writings of any kind from Scandinavia, and the Christian 'witnesses' to the Old Religion had, obviously, bit of bias concerning it. What I find intriguing, though, is that a great many archeological finds/graves from pre-Christian Scandinavia include Hammer of Thor amulets, which look like a capital 'T' hung on a chain from the bottom. These are found made of silver, gold, copper, and (rarely) of wood, so they appear to have been worn almost as often as a Christian Cross by the converts. Most intriguingly, Christian Crosses have been found that have been converted from Hammers by welding an extra 'bit' onto the top of the 'T'!
All in all, while there is little evidence of Public Religious Ceremony/Ritual, I am not so sure we can categorically say that there was little private, personal religious observance.

 

[liv]

I have a book recommendation Tree of Salvation: Yggdrasil and the Cross in the North. Very good discussion of how the idea of life and the evergreen tree persisted in northern European culture. It came out a few years ago
which is sort of consistent with the stave kirke getting faith from trees

 

[God of Kings]

The belief that one kisses under the mistletoe came from Norse mythology in which after the death of the most handsome Norse god Balder died from a mistletoe dart thrown by Balder's blind twin brother Hoder, accompanied by none other than Loki, as Balder's mother Frigg made him immune to everything except for the mistletoe, Frigg decided to make the mistletoe a plant of love. Oh, and later, Loki was bound in chains made from the intestines of his sons with venom dripping on his forehead as punishment, and whenever the pot to collect venom becomes full, Loki would shake so hard in pain, earthquakes happen.

 

[Patine]

The belief that one kisses under the mistletoe came from Norse mythology in which after the death of the most handsome Norse god Balder died from a mistletoe dart thrown by Balder's blind twin brother Hoder, accompanied by none other than Loki, as Balder's mother Frigg made him immune to everything except for the mistletoe, Frigg decided to make the mistletoe a plant of love. Oh, and later, Loki was bound in chains made from the intestines of his sons with venom dripping on his forehead as punishment, and whenever the pot to collect venom becomes full, Loki would shake so hard in pain, earthquakes happen.

That story is quite typical of Polytheist legend and lore in general...