Stay behind the Great Wall!

[SeVeS]

This is my first post since ages. I only bought Civ4 a few weeks ago and played a couple of games now. I really enjoy reading the various succession games, but also the ALC series! Keep up the good work!!

Anyway, to the point now. I may have a nice idea for a succession game. I'm quite uncertain if you'll like the concept or if it has been done before. So please be gentile .

A small thing I really like in Civ4 is the Great Wall wonder. It just looks great! It also gave me an idea for a nice game.

The basic idea would be to stop expanding after we have build the great wall. All the land that lies within our wall is ours! We are not allowed to expand any further! Cities outside the walls need to be abandoned! If a part of the BFC of a city lies outside the wall, those tiles can only be worked in peace time. During war we have to get our people inside the walls!


So in short:
- Build the great wall
- Abandon cities outside the walls
- During wartime, only work tiles inside the walls.


I have no idea about a leader, difficulty level and so on.

Also I'm not able to play this game myself, since I'm quite busy at the moment with work (which, for some reason has a higher priority than civ). I just wanted to share the idea.

Any thoughts? Does anyone wants to pick this up, or is it just a stupid idea.


Regards,
SeVeS

 

[pigswill]

Sounds like an ok idea. The only issue is that once wall has been built even though is effects expand the wall graphic doesn't. Only having cities inside the wall graphic is ok. Interesting choice between rexing to increase boundary and building Gwall early enough. Presumably if beaten to the wall its game over/inglorious defeat etc.
In terms of level etc wait to see who posts an interest and at what skill level; also depends what skill level you're comfortable with.

 

[SeVeS]

Sounds like an ok idea. The only issue is that once wall has been built even though is effects expand the wall graphic doesn't. Only having cities inside the wall graphic is ok. Interesting choice between rexing to increase boundary and building Gwall early enough. Presumably if beaten to the wall its game over/inglorious defeat etc.
In terms of level etc wait to see who posts an interest and at what skill level; also depends what skill level you're comfortable with.

Well, as I said in the first post, I'm not able to play. So, everything is open for the one who wants to pick it up!

 

[Killroyan]

Lurkers comment:

With this setup you have to get the biggest borders as fast as possible as well as a good chance in building the wall so you should at least have a creative leader and preferably 3 cities up with the first border pop. Otherwise it will be very hard. Getting some religions and try to get a cultural win could be a possibility (Louis could be a good choice for that with ind/cre and salons).

 

[mrwhite89]

It would be kind of tough to use play a game like that, since the Great Wall is built very early in the game. I doubt you would have too many cities built by then.

 

[sunrise089]

You might try something like Sulla's RB game The Golden Five - shoot to a few good cities very quickly, and then get the wall built, maybe with a rushed GE? Then just do for a diplo or culture victory.

 

[50_dollar_bag]

Sometimes I see the Great Wall built before Stonehenge.
Usually on Monarch if I manage to build it I've only got 2 maybe 3 cities and most of the time their borders don't touch so it's only the capital and maybe one other city that get encompassed by the wall graphic, so I think a Creative leader would be essential.
Difficulty level would probably have to be Prince or Noble, and maybe omitting Industirous leaders from the AI lineup.
my 2¥

 

[sunrise089]

Sometimes I see the Great Wall built before Stonehenge.
Usually on Monarch if I manage to build it I've only got 2 maybe 3 cities and most of the time their borders don't touch so it's only the capital and maybe one other city that get encompassed by the wall graphic, so I think a Creative leader would be essential.
Difficulty level would probably have to be Prince or Noble, and maybe omitting Industirous leaders from the AI lineup.
my 2¥

I would think to make it work you would need to either keep rerolling until you find a really late Wall date, or instead play an industrious/creative leader (is there one?) and edit the map and the AIs to make there be no stone and no other industrial leaders. Then spam 3-4 settlers and then the Wall, and pray.

 

[SeVeS]

Sometimes I see the Great Wall built before Stonehenge.
Usually on Monarch if I manage to build it I've only got 2 maybe 3 cities and most of the time their borders don't touch so it's only the capital and maybe one other city that get encompassed by the wall graphic, so I think a Creative leader would be essential.
Difficulty level would probably have to be Prince or Noble, and maybe omitting Industirous leaders from the AI lineup.
my 2¥

I have given it some thought and decided to roll a start. As I posted before I have no time to commit myself to a succession game, besides I have no experience regarding these games at all. So you could play the start individually until the Great Wall has been build. Then post the results and then play the best start as open succession game!


Anyway, as said I rolled a start on noble. The leader is indeed Louis from France. He is industrious and creative. The other leaders are Cyrus [chm/imp], Hannibal [fin/chm], Frederik [phi/org], Tokugawa [agr/pro], Hatsheptsut [spi/cre], Mansa Munsa [spi/fin]. So, none of them is industrious.

We play on a standard continental map. Temperate climate with a medium sea level. Speed will be normal.

O, it is in Warlords 2.08

Here the start:


In my humble opinion a decent start. A coastal start for trade routes. Lots of food available for a great person generating capitol. Only production could be a problem. There is however some wood available for a partly chopped GW.

Anyone up for the challenge?

 

[sunrise089]

If there are any hills in that fog I would call that an outstanding start. I'll give it a go, although without editing the map to offer no stone, or to give the player stone, it seems VERY tough to get to my goal of five cities. Lets see what happens though.

 

[SeVeS]

If there are any hills in that fog I would call that an outstanding start. I'll give it a go, although without editing the map to offer no stone, or to give the player stone, it seems VERY tough to get to my goal of five cities. Lets see what happens though.

I've managed to construct the Great Wall in 1040BC with a total of five cities up and running!

Spoiler :

 

[sunrise089]

Ah, nice work. Looks like it didn't fall quite as early as I feared. Now, if you really wanted to take this idea to the extreme, you should figure out how high of a level the game is still winnable with this variant - I know at prince winning with five decent cities should be doable, but past that I don't know.

 

[SeVeS]

Ah, nice work. Looks like it didn't fall quite as early as I feared. Now, if you really wanted to take this idea to the extreme, you should figure out how high of a level the game is still winnable with this variant - I know at prince winning with five decent cities should be doable, but past that I don't know.

That is a good question! On noble and with this set-up it is possible to have 5 cities up and running, but this could probably be more if one of the top players tried it! Might be a nice challenge, who can get the most cities before the great wall. However on prince or higher this number might decrease significantly.

I see it is possible to win with five cities on prince with only five cities. I have no idea at all how this is like on higher levels. Is there anyone who tried a few city challange on higher levels?

 

[Gr8scott]

Hey this sounds like an interesting challenge. I might give it a try tonight.

I think the opening should be similar to the peaceful domination games. In those games you do a huge land grab early and then try to recover from the economic crash. My guess is here you will need to do the same.

I think a coastal start is terrible btw

A key to the game I think is to get a two or more cities to a third border bump before you have to build the great wall. With a third bump, then you can put additional cities inside the great wall (they have to be 3 squares away from other cities. This will be the only way to add cities after building the great wall. Then as long as you stay peaceful, you can work the tiles with cities inside walls but workers outside the walls.

I think you want a spiritual leader and then go full out for religions. (My guess is Asoka would be nice for this to get fast workers for quick chops, but not sure just yet)

If you time the founding of a new city with the founding of a new religion, the new city usually gets the religion. If you are lucky you should be able to found 2-3 religions. Chopping stonehenge for the massive 8 culture will also be critical in the race for a third bump.

Sounds like a neat variant. However, most of the action is in the first 50-75 turns. After that it is a standard cultural attempt it seems to me. Not sure if it will make a great SG, but who knows.

Ideal start imo would be interior with gold/forests. Interior allows cities around capital if we can get the capital to 3 bump. gold allows for early research to hopefully found religions. Forests allow for wonder chopping.

The other leader that might be good is Huayna. Huayna starts with mysticism and is industrious. That might just edge out the fast worker / organized benefit of Asoka.

Hmm. I'll give it a go and let you know how I fare

GS

 

[sunrise089]

The reason I like the OP's coastal start wasn't as a long term capital, but as a city with enough food to whip out 4 settlers in a row.

 

[Kodii]

If the variant is centered around the Great Wall, then the game should probably be editted to include a GE at the start to ensure it is built by the player. That way the players can judge how far and quickly to expand before the Great Wall falls to the AI.

 

[Jastrow]

The Great Wall date can vary massivaly from game to game. In two of my last 3 games, it was built in the AD at epic speed (prince level, once by me surrounding about a dozen cities, and once by an AI). In the 3rd of those games, with similar settings, it was built something around 1800 BC.

 

[Gr8scott]

OK I have played around with this a bit on the following settings playing as Huayna:

Monarch/Pangea/standard/Low water

I did this setup so I would be more likely to have an interior start. After playing around trying to get 3 cities to have 3 border bumps, I think I have found a better way...

My plan was to get my capital to a fourth border bump prior to making the wall. An early Stonehenge actually makes this pretty easy to achieve. Anyway, here is my start:



Nothing great. A start with a city square that gives 3 commerce is ideal to snag an early religion. As it is, we have to hope. I start out going for Poly since it is on the way to monotheism (the religion I want in my second city).

My tech path is poly>mining>BW>masonry>mono
My build is worker>stonehenge>settler>worker

Pretty straight-forward. I found hindu in the capital for culture and build stonehenge in the capital for culture. Super fast henge can make up for a missed hindu I believe. Anyway, that gives me enough to pop my fourth border from capital ~2000 BC

By ~1500 BC, I have founded monotheism in the second city which got me a quick culture bump there. I am ready to finish up the wall woohoo...err...the wall doesn't surround the second city! Arrrggg!!




I need the rules committee

I go back to a previous save and decide to wait for another border pop on my second city to connect the culture. This seems pretty risky on monarch since I can't really get the 2nd border bump until ~950bc and there is a good chance of the wall being built by ~1000 bc I think.

Anyway, luck is with me and I bump my borders and build my wall around 950 bc.



I think this general approach gives you a good shot at winning a cultural victory. The 4 ring city + a 3 ring city gives you plenty of spots to build cities behind the wall. It will still be a challenge to be peaceful the entire time, so will be fun to play out and see how it goes.

With some optimization, I think it is reasonable to get a 4 ring and a 3 ring and a wall built by 1000-1200 bc.

As a proposed variant rule, I would say pick a time by which the wall has to be built (0 AD or 1000BC or something) That way, a lucky start where the AI ignores the wall doesn't give huge advantages. Still the issue of tough luck with an 1800bc AI wall, but so it goes.

Here is the save if anyone wants to play it from here.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/92457/Great_Wall_Test_BC-0955-not_too_bad.CivWarlordsSave

I haven't thought too much about the post wall phase although I would guess city spam to make sure you get the spots would be next...

 

[sunrise089]

Good play, but I'm still not sure if you wouldn't be better off quickly building some settlers and grabbing some more ideal city spots, assuming the AI continues to cooperate with late Wall date.

 

[Gr8scott]

Good play, but I'm still not sure if you wouldn't be better off quickly building some settlers and grabbing some more ideal city spots, assuming the AI continues to cooperate with late Wall date.

If we take the rules to imply all cities outside the wall have to be abandoned, then I don't think a bunch of settlers could be better. They would have to be close to the capital so that their culture joined with the capital. But those cities are basically the city spots I have already taken with my 4 bump culture. The advantage of this set up is I have a second 3 bump city that gives me a few more city options.

I just started playing with this, so I'm not sure if multiple settlers is better, but I don't see how it would improve things. If you get one that works, post a save. I would love to take a look.

GS

EDIT: With the 4/3 setup, I can crowd a staggering 12 more cities inside the Great wall. I really only need 4 or 7 (to make a total of 6 or 9) to make a run at a cultural victory, but with 12 I get some ability to pick and choose...