Steele 'choice' gaffe sparks GOP revolt

[Nordstream]

And exactly what sin has a fetus comitted?

And lets not try to fling insults while we discuss things shall we?

Original sin.

 

[MobBoss]

Original sin.

And what do you know of Gods grace and his mercy in such a situation?

Anything?

 

[Nordstream]

And what do you know of Gods grace and his mercy in such a situation?

Anything?

Unbaptized babies go to purgatory.

 

[general_kill]

Easy. Abortion is killing an innocent life. Executing a serial murderer on death row...not so much.

Your response is completely irrelevant.

Reread what I wrote. You guys cannot claim to be pro-life because you are not. Please rename your stance to pro-innocent life at the very least.

And capital punishment is not black and white. Do you know how many criminals have been acquitted even on death row due to new evidence or new technology such as DNA testing? You gotta look past the obvious mass murderers who get most of the media attention and look at the kind of evidence that have gotten people killed by our tax money in the past.

It's extremely annoying when you view the world as black and white, it shows a dangerous degree of ignorance. It's disingenuous to claim a position you clearly do not hold.

Plus, the majority of criminals are born as unwanted babies. The same babies pro-life people want mothers to keep. Then when they are born, the same pro-life people are against spending any money to help them. The pro-life people want to take away their welfare and basically force them into lives of crime. Then when the babies grow up to commit worse and worse crimes, the pro-life people want to kill them.

 

[Formaldehyde]

And lets try not to fling insults while we discuss things shall we?

I think he was saying you don't seem to follow the basic precepts of Christianity too closely. That there seems to be a big contradiction between the way you view sin and the appropriate punishment for those sins in that perspective. I would tend to agree with that assessment.

It's extremely annoying when you view the world as black and white, it shows a dangerous degree of ignorance. It's disingenuous to claim a position you clearly do not hold.

QFT.

 

[MobBoss]

Unbaptized babies go to purgatory.

What if your not catholic?

Your response is completely irrelevant.

/shrug.

Reread what I wrote. You guys cannot claim to be pro-life because you are not. Please rename your stance to pro-innocent life at the very least.

Again, its simply semantics. I didnt name the anti-abortion movement, nor am I in any place to influence the title. I can merely show you the reasons why someone would be against abortion but for capital punishment.

Now, if all that is important to you is semantics...then whoopee.

If you actually want to talk about the point. Go ahead.

And capital punishment is not black and white. Do you know how many criminals have been acquitted even on death row due to new evidence or new technology such as DNA testing?

That simply means the system is working. Better and better every year due to forensic science too.

I never said any system is error free. But it is error free as we can make it. And as you pointed out, its actually getting more error free each and every year.

You gotta look past the obvious mass murderers who get most of the media attention and look at the kind of evidence that have gotten people killed by our tax money in the past.

Out of all the people executed on death row, I have yet to see an actual case where it was proven beyond all doubt that someone innocent was actually put to death.

This being the case, I dont think we do that bad of a job in determining guilt in that process.

It's extremely annoying when you view the world as black and white, it shows a dangerous degree of ignorance. It's disingenuous to claim a position you clearly do not hold.

When did I say I was pro-life? I clarified my position just earlier in this thread. Perhaps you should scroll up and read it again. As to being annoying.../shrug.

Plus, the majority of criminals are born as unwanted babies.

Do you have anything to actually back this up?

The same babies pro-life people want mothers to keep.

Actually, no. If a mother doesnt wish to keep a child, most 'pro-lifers' that I know would recommend placing the child for adoption into a home that actually wants the baby. Lots of people willing to adopt you know.

Then when they are born, the same pro-life people are against spending any money to help them.

Could you ad hom any more please? I mean really. Try keeping baseless ad hom accusations out of the arguement.

The pro-life people want to take away their welfare and basically force them into lives of crime.

Not at all. They just dont want babies killed.

Here is a novel idea. Lets expect people to be RESPONSIBLE! WOW!

Then when the babies grow up to commit worse and worse crimes, the pro-life people want to kill them.

More silly ad homs. Here is a list of extremely famous and influential people who were orphaned or given up for adoption. http://thirdworldorphans.org/gpage.html34.html also famous adopted people http://famous.adoption.com/famous/a-z-index.html

Hmmmm. Apparently Steve Jobs was an unwanted child. What a criminal. Bach was given up and adopted. Another ingrate I suppose.

Not every un-aborted child turns into a criminal. And its grossly irresponsible to even suggest it to be honest.

 

[Drewcifer]

As much as I want to enjoy the implosion of the Republican party I think they are going so far out of the mainstream with their bible banger litmus test politics that the US runs the risk of becomming a defacto one party state until they get their act together. Somebody needs to tell them that it is not 1980 anymore and half of Reagan's electorate is dead. Without a reasonably electable opposition the Democrats will get fat and happy which will likely do the country no good in the long run.

 

[Formaldehyde]

It certainly can't be any worse than the last 8 years.

 

[Drewcifer]

It certainly can't be any worse than the last 8 years.

The point is that competition concentrates the mind, the Democrats will govern better in terms of execution if they are looking over their shoulder. It doesn't even have to be the Republicans, it could be the Libertarians or Greens but somebody has to keep them honest.

 

[Gustave5436]

Semantics. Maybe the pro-choice crowd should change their position to pro-abortion?

No one likes abortion. It's called "pro-choice" because that's what it is; acknowledging the right of the woman to control over her own person. Unlike the Republicans' support for capital punishment, there is no blatant contradiction involving this term.

Easy. Abortion is killing an innocent life. Executing a serial murderer on death row...not so much.

A serial killer is alive, yes?

 

[MobBoss]

No one likes abortion.

There are exceptions to every rule. Even that one.

 

[Nordstream]

What if your not catholic?

Thats the problem with a religious argument for a legal question isn't it? It is simply not relevant.

 

[general_kill]

Again, its simply semantics. I didnt name the anti-abortion movement, nor am I in any place to influence the title. I can merely show you the reasons why someone would be against abortion but for capital punishment.

Ok, and I'll draw the assumption you are okay with the state killing people if it is justified in YOUR mind. And just for the record, what is the smallest crime a person can commit that you feel someone should be killed for?

Rape?
Raping a child?
Raping an infant?
Molesting an infant?
Torturing an infant?
Murder?
Man slaughter?
What if two people got into a fist fight that either one could have walked away from, and due to a freak accident, one guy kills the other either?

Crimes like murder is not always black and white where one guy is clearly evil. Let's say a father locks his daughter in the basement and rapes and tortures her for 15 years. She feels trapped and has been mentally destroyed by her father and one day, seeing the opportunity, she plans and successfully hit her father over the head with something killing him... Where do we draw the line?

Please list the parameter in which capital punishment is justifiable and you will see the flaw in your logic. Just because you, or even a majority of people think someone deserves to die, it DOES NOT mean they do. Capital punishment in of itself is not necessarily the biggest problem, it the line you draw and the way it is carried out that is.

You may argue, well if the state is not a good enough judge of who should die, why are mothers of the unborn fit to judge whether or not their unborn child should die? That would be a very legit argument that you CAN make if you were anti-capital punishment. But being pro capital punishment, you should understand that there are cases when abortion is appropriate. The cliche arguments are cases where the mother's life is in danger and cases of rape and incest. Because bring the child to life in those circumstances would cause enormous harm to another life--the mother's.

However, if you look at the bigger picture of social illness and weigh the two sides. Unwanted babies predominantly come from lower income mothers. Without institutions to perform abortions, some of these mothers will seek out dangerous "coat hanger" alternatives which put her in serious danger. Even if we do successful force the mother to give birth, she will be further impoverished and burdened. The child will grow up with a mother who never wanted him and statistically become a burden on society. The money it takes to school them, police them, imprison them, and eventually killing them will be quite astronomical. All the while, they'll be reproducing at a faster rate than the productive demographic of society.

As a realist, I cannot say that our society has room for everyone and that we should promote unregulated population growth. If that were the case, we should outlaw condoms because they prevent life from occurring.

And I need to clarify that those who are "pro-choice" are not advocating doctors to kill babies right before they are born. Most of us agree with the ruling of Roe v Wade where we set limitations on when a woman can have the procedure.

As far as the abortion issue is concern, we need to be realistic. Abortion patients are self selecting. They decide if they are ready for the commitment of having a baby or not. I am emphasizing the abortion issue because it is most relevant to the OP.

As for capital punishment, I think we are in agreement with a lot of things. There are just some crazy criminals there who are impossible to rehabilitate and I totally agree they need to be killed asap. I would not trust them even contaminating the prisons they live in.

However, it's the procedures that we may have disagreements about. Here's what a federal judge in Boston had to say:

In the past decade, substantial evidence has emerged to demonstrate that innocent individuals are sentenced to death, and undoubtedly executed, much more often than previously understood," the judge, Mark L. Wolf of Federal District Court in Boston, wrote in a decision allowing a capital case to proceed to trial.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/12/n...&en=68a074149c394948&ei=5007&partner=USERLAND

Yes, new technology has saved many people from death row, but how many innocent people are we going to send to death right now because we lack some sort of technology? It is here that I ask you a question:

How high does the ratio of innocent:guilty executed need to be for you to hold back capital punishment? In other words, how what percentage of innocent people are you okay with being killed out of all the people we execute? Because if we skip all the BS, innocent people have, are, and will continue to be executed.

In addition there are all kinds of legal nonsense that can lead to "innocent" people being executed legally. In Texas, a guy was robbing a house with another burglar. He was waiting in the get away car when his buddy killed the residence. Under Texas law, he was equally responsible for the death even though he didn't plan or even see the murder and he was put on death row. Sure he's not totally innocent, but you can see how absurd this is.

I agree with you on many things. I personally believe that abortion IS murder. It is very sad. I also believe we should kill crazy criminals. There is also problems with collateral deaths in war, etc. I am a realist, and as a realist, Icannot bring up unrealistic issues like morality into the equation. I believe abortion prevents a lot of crime and makes our society better because statistically, unwanted babies grow up to cause a lot of conspicuous and egregious social ills. I believe we should have a criminal system that kills crazy criminals faster and a diligent system that prevent legal harm of innocent people.

 

[aelf]

And exactly what sin has a fetus comitted?

And lets try not to fling insults while we discuss things shall we?

I'm not insulting you. It's true.

No one knows what really happens to babies who have not personally accepted Christ. All that Christians can know is that the acceptance is crucial for anyone to be saved. Otherwise, whether you are a murderer or perfectly decent person, you go to hell because of original sin.

If you profess to value life such that you are against abortion, you have to be against capital punishment as well. One life is the same as another - no one is less of a sinner than another. You only go to heaven by grace alone. That's what the Bible teaches us.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Semantics. Maybe the pro-choice crowd should change their position to pro-abortion?

Uhm no. I'm not pro-abortion. I am pro-choice.

I would never, ever advocate abortion to pregnant women, neither would I try to force her to have the baby against her will. It's not up to me, see? I will defend her freedom to chose what she does with the life in her body. Life, not person.

OT: Wow. Next thing we know someone in the government will be declaring themselves atheist!

Hmm, lets not get carried away here.

 

[Enkidu Warrior]

So Steele is anti-abortion, but acknowledges that women have to make their own decisions? We have a phrase for that right? Oh yeah - pro-choice! All this guy has to do is learn how to stop apologizing when he gets things right and we might have a little bit of progress in the anti-progress party. What do moderate Republicans think about this? Are there any left?

 

[GenMarshall]

Unbaptized babies go to purgatory.

Wrong, they don't go to purgatory. Mortal man does not know the fate of the unbaptized. Their fate is left to the mercy of God and Jesus's forgiveness.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Easy. Abortion is killing an innocent life. Executing a serial murderer on death row...not so much.

Would that mean doctors whom perform Abortion are killing innocent life are also deserving of state execution for being serial killers ?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Eating meat is also killing an innocent life. Innocent life means nothing. Innocent human being does.

 

[Mowque]

Do you think they are both equally innocent?

On the 'ultimate' moral grounds, i guess so. Sorry but I'm against killing people under any circumstances. This is why i find it hard to follow the Republicans anywhere, They are inconsistent on this issue.