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Stonehedge start or no ?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Makaz, Feb 1, 2013.

  1. Makaz

    Makaz Warlord

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    Hey,

    I m an average emperor player. I traditionnaly play using a tradition openner using a personal variant of the famous 4 city tradition start.

    Meaning I only create 3 cities (instead of 4) but I tend to squeeze stonehedge in the beginning of the game. It fits with doing scout - worker - stonehedge build order while having researched potery - calendar - mining (to cut trees).

    I used to think that this was a brillant idea as:
    + this is a wonder the AI usually ignores and so easily grabable
    + it is the insurance of having one of the first religion with best beliefs
    + it generates a GE that can help rush build a useful wonder later


    I tend to re-think this strategy at the moment given how science is paramount to everything. By the time I generate the GE, given how late come workshops, my cap is usually able to create any wonder in 8 turns which more or less lessen the use of the GE. And trying to generate a GE prevents from trying to generate GS which hurst the science rush.

    However, I really like religion and would be sad to abandon its bonus ! Would there be an alternative reliable way to ensure getting a religion which not constrains my bo so much ? Is Stonehedge really worth this ? Is AI still ignoring SH in deity and immortal ?

    Please let me know your feeling and your thinking about using SH or moving away from it.
     
  2. iamdanno

    iamdanno Warlord

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    I build it on occasion, but I always try to grab the belief that gives science from cities with trade routes to help my sciance output.
     
  3. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    AI certainly doesn't ignore SH on Immortal and Diety, but it is still possible to get it if you move quickly enough. The question is, what else are you sacrificing to get it (e.g., archers for defense, an earlier settler, granary for growth, etc.)?

    For ways other than SH to generate early faith, see http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=481906, but the most promising alternatives often are getting a faith-giving pantheon belief, pursuing religious CS friendships (quests and gold), and, where available, settling a city near a religious Natural Wonder.

    And keep in mind that religion is helpful, but not a necessity, in any game.
     
  4. Hustapha Thool

    Hustapha Thool Warlord

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    I have tried with success on immortal building Mausoleum of Halicarnassus and Stonehenge, only because I had 4 stone tiles including marble. I was on about a 2 city size island so immediate growth was somewhat limited.

    Pumping out missionaries at less than 10 turns a pop by the time I reached astronomy was quite powerful and fun.
     
  5. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

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    I find GL the must-have, for the science and to pop iron-working. And if you're playing Korea, they make it a priority to get GL, too (and if you ARE Korea, of course GL is your top priority). Get that first, and if you are low enough diff to get the Henge, okay.
     
  6. Makaz

    Makaz Warlord

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    More and more my feeling that science is of such paramount importance that every other aspect needs to be sacrificed.
    But switching 1 wonder for another doesn't please me much either
     
  7. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    Tried Spain yet? I started a game today, found Mount Sinai, and boom: turn 30, i created religion and running 24 faith per turn. Spain is quite reliable, btw. If you pick +4 from natural wonders, every natural wonder you settle will give you minimum 8 fpt.

    On a serious note, agree with Browd: things like Desert Folklore and faith from quarries, along with early barb hunting for quests can get you a reasonably strong religion. If going for Stonehendge means your NC is later than turn 80, don't build SH.
     
  8. brainfixer

    brainfixer Chieftain

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    Should also mention quickly that the early National College build is aimed more for Immortal/Deity- where you really need to catch up in science as fast as you can. Emperor and below it doesn't make or break the game. You have the freedom to reliably rush and complete any wonder that suits your fancy.
     
  9. ense7en

    ense7en n7

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    Meh, i think Stonehenge is one of the weak wonders to be going for early.

    If you have no terrain/resources/luxs that can give additional faith with a Pantheon, i wouldn't worry too much about religion.
    And if you do have the above, you pick pantheon accordingly, and you'll be getting decent fpt without needing to spend all that time building Stonehenge.

    There are far more important things to be spending hammers on. Workers, settlers, libraries, archers, etc.
     
  10. Xahz

    Xahz Chieftain

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    Stonehenge guarantees an early religion with good spread. It also gives one of the earliest GE points (along with Pyramids) letting you net a GE for Pisa or other wonders around that era. Religion is all about getting it as soon as possible so you can start spreading it ASAP and using AI ICS to game the pressure system.

    I don't think it's necessary but I almost always rush it if I plan on playing a religious game. Great Library is the weak one in my opinion. A free tech that early in the game isn't really worth much. It lets you tech military and rush a luxury tech or something, but I really don't see why it's so highly regarded.
     
  11. Wargizmo

    Wargizmo Warlord

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    The real power of the GL is it lets you get the National College up so much earlier than normal, you can bulb philosophy and build the NC off one city before settling and it only slightly delays expansion while giving you a ridiculous early tech advantage. I used this build on the latest GoTM and I'm 2 turns away from Astronomy at turn 100.
     
  12. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    Yeah, the fact that it opens up not only the National College, but also the Oracle, is what makes GL so powerful imo. You string those three wonders together and it puts you quite far ahead both science- and culture-wise. From there, beeline a key military tech to conquer, or a key wonder tech, or whatever.
     
  13. Hpuk

    Hpuk Warlord

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    For people talking about generating a GE with Stonehenge, how do you do it?
    It's only one GE point per turn, and even if you manage to get a second wonder for two points per turn, you would still get a GS faster from your two University specialists. I don't see it happening unless you purposefully delay your scientists, tech to workshops early and use a specialist in your workshop. Even then I wonder if it's even worth it falling even further behind in tech just to get a GE.

    Anyway, Stonehenge alone does not guarantee a religion every time. You'd get your religion around turn 80 if you only have the 5 faith from Stonehenge. I've played a few games where all the religions were gone by then. The AI only needs 100 faith to generate a GP, at least on Deity.
    I build it sometimes when I have a great start, but it's usually better to just build workers, settlers, libraries and archers during that time, saving your wonder efforts for something better like the Oracle.
     
  14. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

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    The strong impression that I have that a spreaded religion gives you diminishing returns, sacrificing workers, archers, granaries or libraries for SH does not make any sense (I play Immortal but I think it would apply to Emperor as well). And at Immortal+, one does not even think about GL (AI always gets it turns 30-35). It has been a while since where my first wonder was not either NC or Oracle and then nothing until all of the Classical/Medieval ones kick in (Petra, Notre Dame, Pisa, Hagia, etc.). I'm too busy growing my cities, gaining critical science and building an early army to be used later. But then again, I have not played Spain or Celts yet.
     
  15. Xahz

    Xahz Chieftain

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    I guess I could see that, but building three wonders back to back is a real good way to hamstring your city. I don't see how you can go GL -> NC -> Oracle without getting either rushed or being way, way behind on infrastructure. I've had games where even just building NC or Oracle at a bad time has lost me my capital.

    It depends on how you tech. With National Epic and Garden it's 1.5 points per turn (not sure how this rounds off). Assuming you get SH around turn 40, that should be a GE sometime around turn 120, depending on how long it takes you to build NE and Gardens. Depending on your civ and build order, slotting the specialist from your Workshop will get you there even faster. It's not a guaranteed GE but it gets the counter ticking.

    It's 6 faith per turn assuming you built a shrine first. Since you'll probably scout a religious city-state or two that's anywhere from 8-16 starting faith. Unless you get a bunch of leaders that push religion, it's pretty much guaranteed even on Deity. Of course you can still get unlucky but I don't think it's unreasonable to bet on a religion if you rush SH.

    Why do you say that religion gives diminishing returns? You don't always have to sacrifice something. You can go liberty and rush a library in your city while it's building SH so you don't fall behind on tech. Take the free worker and settler and you're not missing out on much. I'm not saying this is the best strategy, but if you're going to rush an early wonder and play the religion game you need to adjust your build accordingly.
     
  16. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    I would agree; the problem is getting the start with enough hammers to beat the AI to it on Emperor; (The AI loves to build the GL and so I always get beat by one to four turns when I try it at this level) With a failed GL; your pretty much screwed unless you use the time machine and change the build to a regular library. (On Immortal, I wouldn't consider hand building any wonder)
     
  17. jtravers88

    jtravers88 Chieftain

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    Your not playing on Immortal or Deity. Only as Babylon can you beat the ai to GL, which is done by turn 37 always.
     
  18. Unresolved

    Unresolved King

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    In my last (attempted) immortal game, the GL wasn't actually completed until turn 56 I think. Of course, I've also seen it completed at turn 27 as well >.>.
     
  19. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    In my experience, there is a fair amount of variation in timing of GL on Immortal -- seen it go before turn 30 and after turn 50, but usually somewhere in turn 35-42.

    On Diety, it is reliably gone by turns 30-33, and often by turn 27. Unless you pop Writing from a ruin on the turn after finishing Pottery and have enough gold to rush-buy a worker to chop a couple of forests, you have little to no hope of geting it at Diety. You could set up a tiny game with Attilla, Bismarck and Genghis, where you could probably get GL pretty easily, but absent cooking the cast of characters, the risk/reward calculus isn't worth the investment (wonder-fail gold won't pay for a consolation Library).
     
  20. Aaron90495

    Aaron90495 King

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    Turn 56 GL? I'll raise you. On my last Deity game, I got Hanging Gardens on Turn 81. :p Horribly risky decision to go for it (it took me 19 turns), but by some miracle from the heavens, I got it.
     

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