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stop being so political

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by TheDS, Feb 25, 2010.

  1. frekk

    frekk Scourge of St. Lawrence

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    I'll repeat: Obviously you wouldn't do that because it would immediately be inoperable for power purposes

    I don't think it should have anything to do with the form of government - after all, elected governments are perfectly capable of being kleptocracies as well; India, for instance. The form of government might moderate the factors that do give rise to problems (unhappiness representing corruption and mismanagement) but they shouldn't directly affect it. It's not like North Korea's reactors are suddenly going to become safer if they hold an election tommorow, though the conditions fostered by an election might help eventually (or might not, depending on the policies adopted).

    Moreover, it's sort of misleading to think that Western reactors are all that much safer than, say, Russian ones. Although none of them have been major, over 70% of all nuclear accidents to date have happened in the US, even though the US doesn't have anywhere near that large a share of all the reactors in the world. It's more true to say that post-Chernobyl reactors are safer than pre-Chernobyl reactors.
     
  2. Afforess

    Afforess The White Wizard

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    Really Catastrophic, compared to what? You can't use comparative adjectives without a comparison. Are you really trying to argue that Nuclear Reactors are unsafe? Your logic is completely unsound. The only thing you have managed to convince us of is your irrationality. :rolleyes:
     
  3. frekk

    frekk Scourge of St. Lawrence

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    Let me clear that up for you by repeating what you quoted.

    "without assigning any resources to safety ... a nuclear reactor is pretty much guaranteed to do something really catastrophic - far worse than Chernobyl."

    Proving even you don't think your own argument is sufficiently convincing on its own.

    Maybe you should take a little time before posting. Just a suggestion.
     
  4. Afforess

    Afforess The White Wizard

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    Touche.


    Incredible. Does anyone else see the Irony in making a personal attack, when criticizing personal attacks? :rolleyes:


    Well duh! That's like saying "a car without brakes is dangerous". Obviously true. Its the conclusions we draw from these statements that show real intelligence, or rather lack of... Since Nuclear Power, improperly handled is dangerous should we:

    a.) Ban Nuclear Power
    b.) Promote Nuclear Safety and Regulation & Enforce Guidelines

    If you chose a, feel free to curl into the fetal position; sharp and dangerous objects exist in this world, and they are going to hurt someone someday. :rolleyes:

    Edit: Editing your post doesn't take back the words you said. ;)
     
  5. Crazy George

    Crazy George Destined to Rule

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    I've got a few extra Humpbacks I'm willing to trade for Grey's.

    Is too. Is too. Is too. Is too. Is too. Is too. Is too. Is too. Is too.

    Amen to that, brother. Amen to that.

    Clearly you're not paying attention to the thread.
    You see, I've watched The Simpsons. So like, I know.

    Not as easy as it sounds. I've tried. Incidently, so has Homer.

    In years past, I might not have know what esoteric jargon like this meant. But every since watching The Simpsons, I know that this means something funny is about to happen.

    Something "Goes Boom" and the laughs ensue. Classic.
     
  6. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    Whoever made this thread seems he was just way too upset or frustrated at the time he wrote it. If you seriously think that Civilization is trying to make a political point to the world over coal plants and nuclear plants, then I can't imagine the frustration some other games must cause you.
     
  7. mechaerik

    mechaerik Tuturuu!

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    I'm fairly sure there is a Hydro Plant failure event that causes some damage, if not as obviously broken as your suggestion.
     
  8. trickofthehand

    trickofthehand Prince

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    A) The fact that a hazard needs to be looked at does not imply in any way, shape or form that the plants are dangerous or at risk for catastrophe from a natural disaster. In context it is merely an observation that safety and/or security can be improved.

    B) Spent fuel rods stored on-site pose a hazard simply because they are present , the risk they pose is inherent to the fact that they are not stored in a proper deeply-submerged holding area. However it would take incredible forces for these spent rods to pose ANY environmental or health risk. Even if somehow they were to spill out of their container... then you pick them right back up and put them back. Maybe scrub a few cubic feet of soil and call it a day. But ofcourse if you have "details of a storage facility" then you should probably know about spent-fuel rods and what hazards they pose.

    Oh I guess not.
     
  9. trickofthehand

    trickofthehand Prince

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    /yawn?
     
  10. trickofthehand

    trickofthehand Prince

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    wrong (again)

    http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=221132
     
  11. frekk

    frekk Scourge of St. Lawrence

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    You can't improve on perfection.
     
  12. frekk

    frekk Scourge of St. Lawrence

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    It's an internet forum. Good source. :rolleyes:

    And it doesn't even deal with what you quoted. It deals with an unattended plant that has safety features, not a plant that doesn't have any at all. This is what you said "wrong" to - that no safety investments of any kind would be dangerous.

    Please, people, think before posting.
     
  13. Higher Game

    Higher Game National Socialist

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    Something not mentioned is the amount of land a "city" in Civilization represents. Going by most scales for world maps (even on large maps), the area of Chernobyl left uninhabited would probably just be a single tile. The best game way of modeling this would be a loss of 1-3 population, +1 sickness (for permanent long term effects), radiation on a random tile, the loss of the power plant, and further losses of 0-2 buildings (0 to simulate a distant plant, 2 if at the city center).

    An ICMB with a dozen MIRVS, hitting targets over an entire region, would be literally an order of magnitude worse than Chernobyl was. It's crazy to compare a proper weapon to a plant that in principle is designed to be safe. The damage levels are simply vastly different.
     
  14. Phil Ken Sebben

    Phil Ken Sebben Chieftain

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    I don't think I understand, What do environmental issues have to do with POLITICS? I know some political parties put more emphasis on protecting the environment, and treating animals better, but when I think of hydro energy being in the game I don't think OMG SID MEIER IS A MEMBER OF THE GREEN PARTY.

    What do you care, anyway? So what if Civ4 promotes treating the world around us better. Since when is that not-done?
     
  15. Higher Game

    Higher Game National Socialist

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    It's a problem when it's not realistic or balanced, and Civ 4 default nukes are neither. Civ 3 actually had it right, but they regressed.
     
  16. Perfxion

    Perfxion Warlord

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    In Civ3, Nukes were used all the time. In Civ4 its like real life, nobody wants to be the first to use it. So they made the effects and codes to make it so no AI really wants to use a nuke.
     
  17. Shurdus

    Shurdus Am I Napoleon?

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    Quick question without rerading through the mud throwing contest:

    If people in here, self proclaimed experts and professionals alike, cannot even come to some sort of an agreement on anything in here, how do you expect the game to do anything right when it is released? Obviously at least one camp will be disappointed.

    Since plants around the globe are not alike, and not all are build with all safety measures in mind, one may as well implement a wide variety of consequesnces should a plant go boom. One game you may lose the plant and nothing else, in the next five games you get no trouble whatsoever, the seventh game you play sees a plant blow up a city and the land surrounding it. That could work, and it reflects the fact that we obviously cannot oversee the possible consequences of what may go wrong. This thread does nothing if it does not demonstrate at least that.
     
  18. frekk

    frekk Scourge of St. Lawrence

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    That's a great idea, if they keep the current method of doing it.

    What I'd prefer, though, is to have a Chernobyl event as part of the event system rather than a chance per reactor and present in every game. Events can have only a % chance to be present in any particular game so they won't always fire, plus, you can have them so that they're triggered just once. You could also script the event so that it has a tendency to hit the civ that is most likely to be a corner-cutter (on the basis of measures like the civ's health/happiness, commerce, etc).
     
  19. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    I agree that Events are the right mechanism to use to model melt-down risk.

    Its a low probability event, but its a flavorful way of making nuclear power Different from other sources.

    I think people also need to distinguish between "environmental consequences" and "environmental consequences of the scale that affect entire civilizations.

    Yes, storage of nuclear waste has issues IRL. But we're talking on the order of magnitude of, say, some stuff gets into groundwater and the cancer rate of people in the surrounding area goes up 50%.

    Its bad, and it might kill some people, and IRL we should be worried about that, but its not going to render vast areas of land unproductive from centuries.
     
  20. Crazy George

    Crazy George Destined to Rule

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    I think I see your point.
    Sorry if I offended.
     

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