Strange Situation

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by ptoss1, Jun 28, 2012.

  1. ptoss1

    ptoss1 King

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    I'm playing a game on King Shuffle Huge as Askia. Surrounding me are the Incans, the Koreans, the Germans, and the Iroquois. Up the the Medieval Era, the Koreans and Germans have been my main block of power. Korea has been to war with England, who are on the other side of Korea so I'm not too concerned. Germany has also been to war with both the Incans and the Iroquois, but I don't really care so long as Bismark doesn't die and leave me with angry neighbors wondering if they should hit me next.

    Then comes the Renaissance Era, so I send my spy to the Korean capital Seoul, since they've been spamming cities the entire game, very un-Korean like. What do you know, they're plotting against Germany. So being the peace advocate that I am, I tell Germany this, thinking it's not really that big of a deal, and all it'll do is boost my relations with him. Perhaps Korea is just trying to steal some tech or something stupid.

    A few turns later, a modestly sizable Korean army heads toward me. Now I'm sort of freaking out, but they don't attack, instead going past me since we have Open Borders. After that I notice the Iroquois are also moving some units, so what I was thinking was they're going to war and they know this because of spies. My other info besides scheming against Germany was that they were also planning an attack on another unknown civilization.

    So nope, they don't attack the Iroquois... they attack Germany... while I was in a Defensive Pact with Germany... and Korea at the same time. What this does is cancel my DP with Korea, and allies me with Germany automatically. I didn't even get a notification. What really pisses me off, is that because I got into a war with Korea because of this DP, I automatically also got the negative "went to war with a friend (Korea)" modifier, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS ONLY BECAUSE OF A DP. So even though I'm coming to the defense of Germany, he still thinks I'm a jackass because I declared war against Korea, even though I had no choice, and it's beneficial to him?

    Korean Army Passing Through
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    Korean Army
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    Korean and Iroquois
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    Korea DoW Germany
    Spoiler :


    I Get a Penalty for Honoring a DP
    Spoiler :
     
  2. Adjuvant

    Adjuvant Emperor

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    Clearly you're a warmonger.

    Just kidding.

    Why would you enter defensive pact with anyone with a small military like that? They don't stop people from DoW'ing you. It looks to me like Korea really dislikes Germany for whatever reason and just needs an excuse to bleed off those early cheap units to right his economy while doing a little damage in the process. I wouldn't take it seriously, yet.

    edit: also leaning longswords with so few mandekalu is very un-askia-like. You have horses and you're gimping yourself.
     
  3. ptoss1

    ptoss1 King

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    I was in a DP with Korea and Germany because... they're the only people who like me. Didn't build any Mandekalus because I sold all the horses off earlier. Also first time as Askia, and I early rushed a bunch of warriors to farm barbarians.
     
  4. Adjuvant

    Adjuvant Emperor

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    Next time as askia beeline horsemen, using early archers to kill barbarians. Lead attacks against AI with cover composite bows and "bat cleanup" with 6-10 sweeping mandekalu. "Maybe" have 2 swords to damage pike-heavy civs with the bows, and the horses can still clean them up.

    You're right to be friends with germany. Your only real threat til lancers would have been his 20 landsknecht. Just saying, could have/ should have owned Sejong by now. Soon you'll have to worry about h'wacha and you'll lose your window, then you have to push muskets.
     
  5. chazzycat

    chazzycat Deity

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    yeah you don't want to be in defensive pacts with two civs that are about to go to war. thats just bad diplomacy
     
  6. mposyncckh

    mposyncckh Chieftain

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    the strangiest thing is that frankfurt is following judaism
     
  7. thadian

    thadian Kami of Awakened Dreamers

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    i wish it gave you the option to:

    honor the pact
    dishonor the pact
    offer alliance to the aggressor
     
  8. ptoss1

    ptoss1 King

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    Finally somebody gets the point I'm trying to make.

    It just feels weird to automatically enter a war without any prior warning, and to get a negative modifier EVEN WITH THE ONE YOU ENTERED THE WAR WITH. Why would Bismark be angry about me going to war with Korea, when it's in his best interests?

    With the option to honor/dishonor then at least you can choose to get a major negative modifier or battle it out. It didn't even tell me when I went to war, I only spotted it by going to diplomatic options when suddenly all my deals with Korea were voided. Then I was like... what? It's not my fault I had to go to war with stupid Korea you guys are the aggressors, why the heck should I have to suffer for your actions and why in hell is Bismark angry at me for going to war with Korea...?

    Oh, and yes it is weird Germany's religion is Judaism...

    I didn't know they were going to war against each other obviously. Germany, Korea, and I were the power block for the entire game up until the Medieval Era not counting the one minor war Germany initiated against me in the beginning. I was trying to lead Korea or Germany into a joint war against either the Incans or the Iroquois. I probably should've noticed Germany and Korea had stopped signing friendships.

    I'm just saying. Logically this makes no sense at all. In fact, I should get a bonus positive modifier with Germany because Korea was the aggressor and I had no choice in going to war him him.
     
  9. DemonMaster

    DemonMaster A.K.A. Fenhorn

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    A defence pact is a defence pact and since Korea was the aggressor you by your pact treaty with Germany was forced to stand on their side.

    So what lessons have we learned by this.

    1) If you have a defence pact it works both ways, you are obliged to help them in need, not just the other way around.

    2) If you have multiple defence pacts, then be prepared that it can backfire. If one is attacked, that is the one that you are obliged to help but also, since you are forced to declare war on your other defence partner (who was the aggressor) you will be get a reputation hit.

    Then of course a choice would have been nice. But the choice would have been to either help Germany or to do nothing. The reputation hit would in this case fall with Germany.
     
  10. thadian

    thadian Kami of Awakened Dreamers

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    I would like a global rep hit if you dishonor the pact or a bigger global hit if you betray the pact and in this case, offer to help korea (the aggressor).

    I have never signed a defensive pacts because they never outweigh the risk in it.

    Now, if i could offer a pact with a greater country, provoke a different country to declare war against us then betray my current pact ally - that would be fun. it would also be a way to "take out" a tech leader. Make them feel safe, then when war goes down, you leave them to the wolves.

    Would be better if, when war were declared, you got a popup from the aggressor offering you to "Stay out of this".

    From there, the amount of enemy units that you kill could help determine the bonus you get from the pact "your a valuable ally!" and "We have seen the value of your alliances!"
     
  11. MisterBoomBoom

    MisterBoomBoom King

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    I might be good for the game to adopt a separate open borders agreement for military units movement vs scouts/civian units.
     
  12. Randall_Flagg

    Randall_Flagg The Evil One

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    I see your point 100%, still think the right thing happened, Korea broke the trust, Germany did not. I do agree the Dip hit is wrong, Korea should have been double hit by everyone. Still, I am thinking DP with two Civs is bad idea at any time!! :) That is one feture I do not use, I like to do my wars when I want. The AI in G&K is better, but still war hungry most times. I even wait for a long time for DoF's now. I prefer to DoF with religious bros and sisters now.
     
  13. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    I think that's ok what you don't have a choice. That's defensive pact, after all. And you could avoid offensive actions if you wish.

    Although, I think negative diplomatic penalties should be modified to handle such situations.
     
  14. Aurelius321

    Aurelius321 Warlord

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    I agree with what some others have said above about how it was a risk that the OP took in the first place. There is an inherent conflict of interest when making multiple defensive pacts with leaders who are, or could be, enemies and if one of them goes to war with the other... Well that's just the breaks. Can't have you cake and eat it too right? :)

    Generally, I have avoided defensive pacts since cIV. It is way too easy to get into a piggy-pile war with half the world because of some AI going batpoop crazy.
     
  15. juxtapose519

    juxtapose519 Chieftain

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    I have to side with the developers on this one. A defensive pact is a gamble. It's a diplomatic boost that comes at the risk of having to go to war with someone you may not want to. It's the same reason that peace treaties must be ratified: If you can just go back on your word, then there's no risk (or at least a limited risk that the reward outweighs).

    Is it totally realistic? No. But it makes for a better game.
     
  16. Andulias

    Andulias A Stranger on a Train

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    I agree with this, if not for one tiny detail - you should get a negative modifier against all civs except the one you had a DP with. Other than that, I side with Firaxis on this.
     
  17. thadian

    thadian Kami of Awakened Dreamers

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    In a gamble, there is an alleged risk and reward. Defense Pacts offer no reward because they don't deter DOW's and leave you at the mercy of other "peoples" decisions. I like being my own master.

    Thus in a gamble that is ALL risk with no reward, there is no reason to ever say yes.
     
  18. chazzycat

    chazzycat Deity

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    It can be worth it in some situations...if you are weak militarily, suspect an invasion from someone strong, and have another ally close by with a strong military for instance. Even if they don't deter DOWs, having someone on the other side open up a second front is hugely beneficial.

    just one at a time though!!
     
  19. Lyoncet

    Lyoncet Emperor

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    Honestly, this whole system would be a lot cleaner and make a lot more sense if Defensive Pacts caused anyone declaring war on one party to declare on all parties, instead of making all members of the pact declare war on whoever declared war on their partner. So A declares war on B and also declares on C because B and C have a DP, instead of A declares war on B so C declares war on A. C is not the aggressor, and the programming should reflect that.
     
  20. Andulias

    Andulias A Stranger on a Train

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    Having a civ as an ally is quite the reward if you ask me. I can think of several times when an ally civ has saved my butt because we had a DP, so I can do nothing but completely disagree with you.
     

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